Q: Random Questions from a Single Reader
ANSWER: Normally when people submit multiple questions I try to space out the answers for them across multiple posts. If readers submit questions for which I can’t write long answers, I group several of them together. This is the first time I recall answering several questions from the same reader, but I can’t provide detailed answers for most of them.
Before I get to the questions, I should mention that a growing number of people are asking me to speculate about things for which there are no authorial answers, even in Tolkien’s notes and discarded essays. I’m still mulling over how I want to respond to those requests. I’ve done it a couple of times before, but certain people love to falsely accuse me of substituting my speculations for Tolkien’s own ideas. I don’t feel comfortable giving them real speculations to point to. But not answering those requests isn’t fair to the rest of you. So I’ll figure out something eventually.
Q: Why are there palantir in Osgiliath AND Minas Tirith?
…Osgiliath is visible from Minas Tirith… you literally don’t need a palantir to see it. Wouldn’t it have made more sense to put the Minas Tirith palantir in Pelargir?
ANSWER: The Palantiri were used for more than just communication, although instantaneous communication between 2 cities that are still miles apart would be pretty efficient in any period of history (real or imagined).
However, according to texts published in Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth, the wardens could use the stones to observe events throughout Gondor. Gandalf mused (as he rode with Pippin to Gondor) about using a stone to look across the sea and back through time to see Fëanor at the height of his craft. Aragorn said he would watch over his friends in the north through one of the stones as well. And both Aragorn and Denethor used their stones to observe events in Middle-earth.
Minas Tirith – originally named Minas Anor – was built to be a defense against the (Gwathuirim) tribes of the White Mountains. So I think the placement of the stones makes sense, given what Tolkien revealed about their powers and the origins of Gondor’s cities.
Q: Why didn’t the forests of Minhiriath recover?
Eriador is deforested in the middle of the second age, but 5000 years isn’t enough time for it to ever grow back?? Even rainforest grows back after 65 years if you leave it alone.
ANSWER: It was only Minhiriath that was deforested, and some portions of the ancient forest survived. I don’t know how much J.R.R. Tolkien knew about forestation and desertification. There is, for example, the Bledowska Desert in Poland that was created hundreds of years ago when the forest that once grew there was cleared for mining. The water table in the region dropped to the point that it couldn’t support vegetation anymore.
Although the desert has shrunk over the centuries, the same process has occurred in much larger regions across the globe, and major plains and deserts have survived for thousands of years. I suspect Tolkien felt confident that Minhiriath could remain deforested for thousands of years because it’s happened naturally (and unnaturally) across Earth. However, if one wishes an in-story reason for the persistent deforestation, one could assume that Sauron exerted his will over the region to keep it deforested – or otherwise ensured it remained so.
Q: How Many Cities Did the Faithful Númenoreans build in what became Gondor?
Gondor was founded in 3320, and the Last Alliance of Elves and Men was in 3430. So in only 110 years the Faithful built 5 major cities (Annuminas, Tharbad, Osgiliath, Minas Anor, and Minas Ithil) and 2 major fortresses (Amon Sul and Orthanc)?? Even though they had been settling middle earth for roughly 2000 years. All while grieving the traumatic destruction of Numenor.
ANSWER: Tolkien only named the towns that were important to his stories. He implies in a few places there were more towns (and possibly cities) in ancient times.
But also keep in mind that these stories are set in a distant imaginary past – about 6,100 years ago. Archaeologists can only confirm the names of a small percentage of the communities that once existed. In fact, only in the past few decades have satellites confirmed that many ancient communities once existed across Africa and the Middle East in what are now largely desolate lands. Tolkien only needed to provide details about the cities and towns that A) had survived until the time of the War of the Ring and B) were significant to the stories.
I think it would be safe to assume that he imagined other towns and communities that existed prior to the destruction of Númenor. Some of them would have been destroyed in the Changing of the World. Others would have been abandoned over the centuries as Gondor’s population waned.
Q: Why did Tolkien place Edhellond in a remote place?
Edhellond is an exceedingly strange place to found a haven. You couldn’t have picked a spot that is more difficult to get to by land. Wouldn’t it have made more sense to found it near the Anduin? Or even the mouth of the Lefnui would have made more sense.
ANSWER: We must accept that Tolkien felt there were good reasons for his placements, even if he didn’t provide them. And don’t forget that the coasts and river-mouths were changed after Númenor’s destruction. Some of the odd placements may have been Tolkien’s way of showing how the world changed, without drawing several detailed maps.
Q: Galador, the first prince of Amroth, was half-elven but he only lived to be 125?? Didn’t Elros live to be 500?
ANSWER: That would seem to be the case. But he could have surrendered his life willingly, which was a custom among the ancient Númenoreans. Also, Elros’ life-span was a gift of the Valar. They could not make him immortal like the Elves but they could give him and his descendants extraordinarily long life-spans. I suspect that Galador’s life-span was dictated by the natural life-span of all Gondor’s Númenorean families, probably as determined by Ilúvatar (or the Valar). Tolkien mentions the “waning of the Dúnedain” many times. It probably would not have helped the situation in Gondor if Galador’s family had longer life-spans than the descendants of Elendil.
Q: What was the Significance of Imrazôr the Númenorean’s name?
Speaking of Dol Amroth, why would there be someone named Imrazor the Numenorean living in the year 1980 of the Third Age? The whole story makes much more sense if you move it back to the end of the Second Age, which I know Christopher Tolkien tried to do in later years…
ANSWER: The descendants of the Númenoreans were still Númenoreans, if that makes sense. People in northern Europe have been called Danes, Germans, and Swedes for thousands of years. In Imrazôr’s case, it may be that Tolkien wanted the reader to understand that his family (and their followers) had not intermarried much with other Men in Middle-earth. Prince Imrahil’s soldiers were all tall Dúnedain and I always had the impression they were deemed to be as true of blood as anyone in Gondor could be.
I hope no one reads more into that than Tolkien’s random assignment of ethnic backgrounds to Gondor’s diverse peoples. It would make sense that – given a large enough original population of Númenoreans – at least one or two small populations would survive without mingling with other peoples. That has happened throughout history.
Q: Why Did Sauron Settle in Mirkwood?
When Sauron returns in around 1000 T.A., southern Mirkwood seems like an odd choice of a hideout, within spitting distance of Galadriel, the most powerful elf in middle earth! Also seems strange that it took Galadriel almost 2000 years to figure out that it was Sauron, given that she had literally met him before back when he was Annatar.
ANSWER: I don’t recall if Tolkien gave his reasons for this placement but I think it makes sense for several reasons.
First, southern Greenwood was very close to the Gladden Fields where the One Ring lay hidden for 2400 years. I think Tolkien implied that Sauron was drawn to the Ring, even though he didn’t realize it was close by.
But Sauron also needed a base of operations from which he could direct his strategies against his ancient enemies. Southern Greenwood/Mirkwood was in a good strategic location. And his servants seized control of the region.
As for Galadriel taking so long to confirm the evil creature in Mirkwood was indeed Sauron, keep in mind that other ancient things had survived well into the Third Age. Gandalf tells Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli there were ancient nameless things dwelling deep beneath the mountains. And at least one balrog had survived. I think Galadriel and the other leaders of the Eldar and Istari were correct not to pry too deep into Mirkwood’s secrets until they absolutely had to know who it was.
If the historical narrative is not convincing enough to help you rationalize that long delay, then I suppose Tolkien failed to make his case for everyone. But he couldn’t fill in all the details. The reader is expected to assume there were reasons not relevant to the main story that discouraged Galadriel and others from attempting to discern the Necromancer’s true identity. Also, they all feared any direct confrontation with Sauron. They might have suspected – even believed – it was him for over a thousand years. But what would they have risked if they had tried to challenge him directly?
That question makes Gandalf’s adventure in Dol Guldur all the more dangerous, in my opinion. I’m only sorry it wasn’t given the treatment in the movies that I had hoped it would have. I have always imagined a large, fully functioning fortress there – not some half-deserted ruin.
Conclusion
I’ve answered most of your questions. I only speculated a little, in my opinion, but these are things many people wonder about. Tolkien rarely fills in all the gaps, and one must infer from his pattern of ambiguous references to unnamed peoples and towns that he imagined a lot of historical knowledge had been lost by the time Frodo and his companions began taking notes.
# # #
Have you read our other Tolkien and Middle-earth Questions and Answers articles?
Regarding Sauron settling in Mirkwood, wasn’t it implied that he also had strongholds in the east? If Mirkwood became too dangerous for him (as it did during the Watchful Peace), he could relocate to one of his safer strongholds.
Sauron fled into the eastern lands twice in the Third Age, according to the Tale of Years.
I’ve got a question. How exactly do I submit one?
You can use this form.
https://middle-earth.xenite.org/contact-michael/
Great, thank you.
Great responses — always love to read your answers (even with some speculation!). I would only add to the question of Galador’s lifespan that his mother’s race would not have made him live longer, and he was not “half-Elven” in the same sense as the Peredhil. The children of unions between humans and Elves were mortal except for the special choice given to a few.
Yes, there’s text in HoME 5 which CJRT inexplicably omitted from the published Silmarillion (last chapter) which explicitly states that anyone with Mortal blood is Mortal. I interpret that as also including a standard Mortal lifespan, so the lifespan of Elros is nothing to do with being half-Elven and everything to do with a special gift of the Valar. My preferred interpretation of that is that Men in Númenor were returned to their original “un-fallen” state, so that the lifespan of Men in Númenor, and the ability to willingly surrender one’s life, were properties of Men before Melkor corrupted them (although I tend towards thinking it was Sauron who did the corrupting). This also ties in with the claim in the Tale of Adanel that early Men didn’t die: they actually did, they just lived longer and died different.
Regarding the deforestation of Minhiriath and Enedwaith, it is written that indeed some parts of those lands were still forested, so we can imagine in part there would be signs of recovery, but a lot of area would remain bare for very long and in turn become grassy plains (central part of Enedwaith is said to be this).
“The river Gwathló is translated “Greyflood.” Butgwath is a Sindarin word for “shadow,” in the sense of dim light, owing to cloud or mist, or in deep valleys. This does not seem to fit the geography. The wide lands divided by the Gwathló into the regions called by the Númenóreans Minhiriath (“Between the Rivers,” Baranduin and Gwathló) and Enedwaith (“Middle-folk”) were mainly plains, open and mountainless. At the point of the confluence of Glanduin and Mitheithel [Hoarwell] the land was almost flat, and the waters become sluggish and tended to spread into fenland. * But some hundred miles below Tharbad the slope increased. The Gwathló, however, never became swift, and ships of smaller draught could without difficulty sail or be rowed as far as Tharbad.
The origin of the name Gwathló must be sought in history. In the time of the War of the Ring the lands were still in places well-wooded, especially in Minhiriath and in the south-east of Enedwaith; but most of the plains were grassland. Since the Great Plague of the year 1636 of the Third Age Minhiriath had been almost entirely deserted, though a few secretive hunter-folk lived in the woods. In Enedwaith the remnants of the Dunlendings lived in the east in the foothills of the Misty Mountains; and a fairly numerous but barbarous fisher-folk dwelt between the mouths of the Gwathló and the Angren (Isen).
But in the earlier days, at the time of the first explorations of the Númenóreans, the situation was quite different. Minbiriath and Enedwaith were occupied by vast and almost continuous forests, except in the central region of the Great Fens. The changes that followed were largely due to the operations of Tar-Aldarion, the Mariner-king, who formed a friendship and alliance with Gil-galad. Aldarion had a great hunger for timber desiring to make Númenor into a great naval power; his felling of trees in Númenor had caused great dissensions. In voyages down the coasts he saw with wonder the great forests, and he chose the estuary of the Gwathló for the site of a new haven entirely under Númenórean control (Gondor of course did not yet exist). There he began great works, that continued to be extended after his days. This entry into Eriador later proved of great importance in the war against Sauron (Second Age 1693-1701); but it was in origin a timber-port and ship-building harbour. The native people were fairly numerous and warlike, but they were forest-dwellers, scattered communities without central leadership. They were in awe of the Númenóreans, but they did not become hostile until the tree-felling became devastating. Then they attacked and ambushed the Númenóreans when they could, and the Númenóreans treated them as enemies, and became ruthless in their fellings, giving no thought to husbandry or replanting. The fellings had at first been along both banks of the Gwathló, and timber had been floated down to the haven (Lond Daer); but now the Númenóreans drove great tracks and roads into the forests northwards and southwards from the Gwathló, and the native folk that survived fled from Minhiriath into the dark woods of the great Cape of Eryn Vorn, south of the mouth of the Baranduin, which they dared not cross, even if they could, for fear of the Elvenfolk. From Enedwaith they took refuge in the eastern mountains where afterwards was Dunland; they did not cross the Isen nor take refuge in the great promontory between Isen and Lefnui that formed the north arm of the Bay of Belfalas [Ras Morthil or Andrast: see p. 224, note 6, because of the “Púkel-men”…. [For the continuation of this passage see p. 400.]
The devastation wrought by the Númenóreans was incalculable. For long years these lands were their chief source of timber, not only for their ship-yards at Lond Daer and elsewhere, but also for Númenor itself. Shiploads innumerable passed west over the sea. The denuding of the lands was increased during the war in Eriador; for the exiled natives welcomed Sauron and hoped for his victory over the Men of the Sea. Sauron knew of the importance to his enemies of the Great Haven and its ship-yards. and he used these haters of Númenor as spies and guides for his raiders. He had not enough force to spare for any assault upon the forts at the Haven or along the banks of the Gwathló. but his raiders made much havoc on the fringe of the forests, setting fire in the woods and burning many of the great wood-stores of the Númenóreans.
When Sauron was at last defeated and driven east out of Eriador most of the old forests had been destroyed. The Gwathló flowed through a land that was far and wide on either bank a desert, treeless but untilled. That was not so when it first received its name from the hardy explorers of Tar-Aldarion’s ship who ventured to pass up the river in small boats. As soon as the seaward region of salt airs and great winds was passed the forest drew down to the river-banks, and wide though the waters were the huge trees cast great shadows on the river, under which the boats of the adventurers crept silently up into the unknown land. So the first name they gave to it was “River of Shadow,” Gwath-hîr, Gwathir. But later they penetrated northward as far as the beginning of the great fenlands; though it was still long before they had the need or sufficient men to undertake the great works of drainage and dyke-building that made a great port on the site where Tharbad stood in the days of the Two Kingdoms. The Sindarin word that they used for the fenland was lô, earlier loga [from a stem log- meaning “wet, soaked, swampy”], and they thought at first that it was the source of the forest-river, not yet knowing the Mitheithel that came down out of the mountains in the north, and gathering the waters of the Bruinen [Loudwater] and Glanduin poured flood-waters into the plain. The name Gwathir was thus changed to Gwathló, the shadowy river from the fens.”
So there were still woods around which may imply some amount of recovery, but in other places the destruction would be such that the area would remain grassy plains, one does not need to look far for similar situation in real world Britain was once well wooded, but ancient forests were cut down and later on large parts of the island were grassy plains.
As for Galadriel and Sauron living in Mirkwood, I seriously doubt that Galadriel would have casually wandered around the southern Mirkwood especially after the shadow fell on the forest and tainted it :), the Wise clearly perceived that SOMETHING has found it’s refuge there but for long they thought it was something lesser which they thought could be contained, they even thought at first that it’s one of the Nazgul and Sauron himself would not really reveal his presence, he was in hiding after all plus with all her power Galadriel possibly could not perceive clearly what dark power made it’s presence there and it’s not like Sauron himself was going for a stroll in the sight of Lothlorien border guard on eastern shore of Anduin 🙂 only when the strength and power of Dol Guldur grew it was perceived clearly as the stronghold of the Enemy.
Regarding the placement of Edhellond I think the location may have been simply influenced by the sheltered cove, depending on the origin of that port city the Elves sailed there in their ships from the north, Edhellond is located at Cobas Haven which may have sheltered the natural port from the violent storms somewhat making it easier for ships and shipbuilding and repair, maybe I’m not expert in these matters, plus the Edhellond is near the estuary of river Morthond, as was said the coasts also changed much over the course of world shattering cataclysms at the Downfall of Numenor etc.
Not sure why, but your comment ended up in the spam folder. I just checked that folder for the first time in a couple of weeks. Sorry about that.