Short Questions and Answers Vol. 8

Comments on Weathertop

In 2013 I wrote How High Was Weathertop? In May 2020 I received the following commentary on the article. I’ve put off sharing it with all of you for way too long.

I read with interest your essay “How High Was Weathertop?” as I am running an RPG adventure set in the area. There are a few other passages from the Fellowship of the Ring that may be relevant. First, on p. 197 (Houghton-Mifflin), the Weather Hills north of Weathertop “made an undulating ridge, often rising to almost a thousand feet”. It seems reasonable that Weathertop could be somewhat higher or lower than this, but probably not a lot.

Second, as you mention, it only took Strider half an hour to climb to the top from the dell on the western flank of Weathertop (p. 198). A typical hiker (using Naismith’s Rule) takes about 20 minutes to hike 1 mile plus 30 minutes per 1000′ of ascent. A 1000′ climb plus 1300′ horizontal distance (equivalent to a steep staircase) would thus take about 35 minutes. Of course, the dell may not have been at the very bottom of the hill, and Strider is likely faster than the average hiker, so the total height could certainly be more than 1000′, but probably not a great deal more, and it could certainly be less.

Third, from the top of Weathertop (p. 199), “Following [the Road’s] line eastward with their eyes they saw the [Misty] Mountains: the nearer foothills were brown and somber; behind them stood taller shapes of grey, and behind those again were high white peaks…” If we can estimate the distance from Weathertop to the Misty Mountains and the height of the mountains, we can use the formula for distance to the horizon to estimate the height of Weathertop.

Karen Wynn Fonstad in her “Atlas of Middle-Earth” gives the distance the party traveled from Weathertop to Rivendell (in the foothills of the mountains) as 214 miles. Strider (p. 200) says it would take him 12 days on foot to get from Weathertop to the Ford of Bruinen near Rivendell — if he walks at 2.5 mph for 8 hours a day, that makes 200 miles. Of course, the road does not run straight, so the distance as the crow flies would be somewhat less, but then we have to add some more for the distance from Rivendell to the peaks, so 200 miles is probably a reasonable estimate.

Tolkien doesn’t say how high the Misty Mountains are, but if they are snow-capped (“high white peaks”) they are probably at least 10,000 feet high (the snow line in the Alps and Pyrenees is 8000-10,000′). If we call them 14,000′ (similar to the Alps), then the peaks would be visible at a distance of about 155 miles, leaving 45 miles to Weathertop, which would mean Weathertop would have to be at least 1200′ high, assuming typical atmospheric refraction (and assuming that the diameter of Middle-Earth is the same as our Earth).

Encouragingly, all three of these hints are fairly consistent, pointing to a height between perhaps 800′ and 1200′.

Thank you for that detailed summary.

Q: Who Named Elrond and Elros?

ANSWER: This question arrived in May 2020. A reader asks:

Who named Elrond and Elros? I’ve heard multiple explanations, and I don’t know which one is right. It seems like an insight into their personalities to know whether the names they prefer to use came from Elwing, Maglor and Maedhros, or Gil-Galad’s people.

I’ve never seen this question before last year, so I was unaware of any debate or discussion about it.

Based only on The Silmarillion and the texts published in The War of the Jewels, it appears to me that Eärendil and Elwing would have named their sons. Of course, Tolkien devised more than one etymological explanation for these names (although he noted that “most of this fails” in a note Christopher Tolkien cited in “The Problem of Ros”, in The Peoples of Middle-earth). I believe scholarly consensus still accepts that Elrond and Elros are Sindarin names, perhaps (probably?) from the Doriathrin dialect.

Petri Tikka published a Website (archived here on OOCities) that included a page titled “Quenya words in Parma Eldalambaron 17”. That page is given as the source by Tolkien Gateway for the (reconstructed/inferred) Quenya version of Elrond’s name, *Elerondo (derived from Elerondiel, “daughter of Elrond”).

So I would say that Elrond and Elros were both given Quenya and Sindarin (Doriathrin) names by their parents, reflecting their dual heritages. But that’s just one more guess added to whatever you’ve already seen.

Q: When did Sauron Defect to Melkor’s Service?

ANSWER: Sometimes it’s the short questions that are most challenging. I received the following inquiry in early May 2020:

When do you think Sauron defected from the Valar to the service of Melkor? For a long time, I assumed that Sauron had betrayed the Valar when Tulkas slept at the Isle of Almaren. But it seems unlikely that Mairon (as he was then known) would want to disrupt such an orderly and unmarred world.

Now my theory is that Sauron defected once the Valar were effectively driven out of Middle-earth after the destruction of the lamps. Perhaps he realized that Melkor had effectively become the lord of Arda, and he wanted to be in a position to influence the future development of Middle-earth. So he went to Utumno.

Is this also your view?

For the record, I don’t have any firm opinion on this matter. I’ve certainly thought about it more than a few times ever since the late years of the Second Millennium. How could Sauron be “of the Maiar of Aulë” and yet “In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself”?

If there is any character whose development and history is more convoluted and confused than that of Galadriel and Celeborn, I would say it’s Sauron. So, if you press me I would guess he probably defected sometime after the first war. That is, he answered the summons along with other Maiar and attached himself to Aulë. But perhaps because of previous admiration for Melkor in the Timeless Halls, he was drawn toward Melkor as he stole back to Arda. I don’t see any other way to reconcile the vague details Tolkien provided.

Q: Could a Gondorian Family Have Had Slaves?

ANSWER: This is a troubling question, but more (for me) because it’s not clear to me what the reader is asking. Many people who read this blog speak and write English as a second language (some quite well, including the person who submitted this question). Sometimes, I just don’t get the full sense of what is being asked. But I’ll do my best to respond here.

This question was submitted in April 2020:

I had a discussion recently about a topic which you have already replied to in: Did Gondor Ever Practice Slavery?.

I would however very much like to ask you same question with the regard to Druedain culture and unfinished “Tal-Elmar” story. Professor Tolkien in this work suggested a possibility of enslaving Druedain (who were not cursed or wicked by nature) by people from Numenor. Moreover Christopher Tolkien implied that this believe was valid in the time before Sauron was a hostage of Numenor so such enslaving was not an effect of Sauron influence.

With the regard to the above I would like to ask if existance of Haradrim slave serving a Gondorian decent family (with humane treatment of the slave) can be ruled out? Is it not possible that imperialistic Dunedain from Arnor and Gondor share the same weakness in their blood as their ancestors in Númenor? A weakness that makes them enslave those who they see more like wild beasts than man? Or their enemies from Harad/Rhun?

I’m not sure “possible” is a word I could agree with, but perhaps “conceivable” is a more plausible way to ask this question.

The Dunedain of Arnor and Gondor were (mostly) descended from the Faithful Dunedain of Númenor, who in turn came mostly from the western lands – and thus were descended (mostly) from the Bëorians (the First House of the Edain). I don’t know of any tradition of the First House or of their descendants owning slaves, although they could have taken in household servants. The story “The Faithful Stone” reveals that the Haladin (the Second House of the Edain) took on household servants. Somewhere in the texts, Christopher Tolkien mentioned that Turin’s childhood friend and household servant – Sador – might have become one of the early Druedain, had j.R.R. Tolkien finished rewriting Narn i Chin Hurin. But that never happened.

So it would seem that only the Marachians and Haladin had a tradition of keeping household servants, although I’m concluding that on very thin evidence (basically making a case built on omission). The Marachians were the primary ancestors of the Kings Men (and subsequently the Black Númenoreans). Given that the Kings Men took slaves it follows that the Black Númenoreans probably took them, too. In fact, we know that at least some groups among the Haradrim enslaved people for their ships.

But I still don’t see any way for such a society to integrate into Gondor without Tolkien at least mentioning slaves being held by Gondorian families. Presumably, as Gondor conquered peoples who kept slaves, the slaves would have been freed. Why presumably? Because that’s what the good guys do. And for all their faults and failures, the Dunedain of Arnor and Gondor were supposed to be (flawed) good guys. I don’t think slavery was supposed to be one of their sins, although those Dunedain who became corrupt (like Castamir the Usurper and his followers) may have become slave owners at some point.

Comment on Stonebows

I received the following comments in February 2020:

Of course it means the arches. [Cf. What Does the Name of the Bridge of Stonebows Refer to? from 2013] The first OED entry for “stonebow” says: “An arch of stone. Obsolete except as the name of one of the gates of Lincoln.” The only quotation given is from line 2545 of Beowulf, where stánbogan (the accusative case) refers to the arch through which a stream flowed out of the dragon’s lair; the word also occurs at line 2718. The Old Norse equivalent is steinbogi; that word is apparently not common in modern Icelandic, but bogi is the standard word for “arch.”

Due to insufficient diligence in rereading Beowulf, I had not noticed the passage describing the entrance to the dragon’s barrow; it looks to me like the inspiration for the description in chapter 11 of The Hobbit of the River Running flowing out of Erebor. The exit being shown as an arch in all the drawings.

Thank you!

Q: What Did Morgoth Intend to Do to Lúthien?

ANSWER: My answer will be short, but I received this thoughtful question in early November 2019:

When Beren and Lúthien came to the seat of Morgoth, Beren slunk in wolf’s form beneath his throne; but Lúthien named her own name, and offered to sing before him, after the manner of a minstrel. Then Morgoth looking upon her beauty conceived in his thought an evil lust, and a design more dark than any that had yet come into his heart since he fled from Valinor. Thus he was beguiled by his own malice, for he watched her, leaving her free for awhile, and taking secret pleasure in his thought.

The evil lust was I assume taking Luthien to be his wife against her will.

What do you think the design more dark then any that had yet come into his heart was? Considering Feanor called him Blackheart and all of the evil things he did (destroying the first lamps, killing the 2 trees of Valinor, killing elves like Finwe, etc., poisoning the waters of middle earth, corrupting elves to become Orcs, creating monsters and many more), what do you think this evil design darker than anything he already did? To have kids with Luthien to rule in Valinor as well as Middle Earth? Not sure Morgoth would allow anyone else to rule. To have a heir to his throne? He was immortal so why would he want that? Then their is a kid who wants to take over.

What do you think Morgoth’s “design more dark then any that had yet come into his heart was”?

Considering this evil design was so entrancing to Morgoth it distracted Morgoth enough to allow Luthien to escape his gaze and then put the entire throne room into slumber, it must have been a doozy.

I’d love to hear your thoughts on this.

I have always believed Morgoth intended to force himself upon her, and perhaps conceive a child with her. Thankfully, Tolkien didn’t take the story in that (or any other similar) direction. He did specifically mention that the orcs committed rape in one text.

Q: Who Created the Mountains of Mordor?

ANSWER: I received this question in December 2019:

Thinking of the maps of LOTR, and noting that I’ve not read all of the HOME books, I’ve wondered if Melkor/Sauron had anything to do with the uniquely fortress-ready shape of the mountains of Mordor. i.e. Did Sauron merely choose Mordor or did he or his former boss actually have a hand in the making of that land?

Well, The Silmarillion says that Morgoth threw up mountains to impede Oromë’s wanderings across the landscape. The Misty Mountains are specifically so described – but I don’t see why the Ered Lithui couldn’t have been constructed for a similar purpose. That’s purely speculation on my part, but I think it’s consistent with the facts given by Tolkien.

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Archived Comments

We had to migrate to a new server over the Thanksgiving Holiday in November 2021. Unfortunately, we lost the Xenite.Org database and had to restore from a backup. The comments below were recovered from a cached copy on another service.

Maxxy says:
July 30, 2021 at 3:55 pm
In which text does Tolkien mention that the orcs committed rape?

Michael Martinez says:
July 30, 2021 at 11:15 pm
LOL! I knew someone would ask me that!

I’ll look it up this weekend and post another reply. Just didn’t have time to find the reference when I wrote this article.

Michael Martinez says:
August 8, 2021 at 9:59 am
Forgot to look into this last weekend as promised.

I found two references to the Orcs and “rape” in THE LAYS OF BELERIAND. Tolkien used the word in more than one way. There’s “small things raped from dead bodies”, “the rape of the Silmaril”, and “the rape of [the Teleri’s] ships”, and “the rape of Gondor”.

However, in “Lay of Leithian” there is a line that describes the Orcs Beren and his Elvish companions slay as staining “no more the sorrowing land with rape and murder.” This is the only passage of which I’m aware that seems to imply the Orcs were committing physical rape (not simply stealing from the dead or pillaging).

It’s arguable that since Tolkien used the word otherwise in so many other passages that he had no such intention here, but the contexts of those passages are much less ambiguous. In any event, he used the word less and less over time. It’s only used once in THE LORD OF THE RINGS.

tioedong (@tioedong) says:
July 31, 2021 at 1:11 pm
Slavery in the Americas was usually cruel in some ways because it was racial and the opportunities to get free, or to integrate into society when freed, was limited. In some ways it was more cruel than in the ancient world, although unlike the ancient world and the Muslim worlds, the slave owner could not freely kill or abandon his slave without public punishment, formal or informal.

Slavery in the ancient world was not only by those kidnapped to serve as slaves. Prisoners of war were often made slaves instead of merely murdering them (mentioned in Egyptian texts, in classical Greek texts, some American Indian stories, and the Bible).

And in the time of famine, up to modern times in Asia, sometimes a child, usually a girl, was given as a slave to get food (the alternative was for the entire family to starve to death). A lot of customs that westerners look on with horror are actually rooted in the reality of starvation,

So one could see Numenoreans allowing POWs or refugees to work on their farms as slaves. The slaves in the Eddas would probably describe this slavery better than modern ideas of slavery as an institution.
Since it was not racial, the freed slave could mingle with the lower class folks when freed, and indeed, some freemen in ancient Rome could run businesses etc. using the name and influence of their previous owner.

fantasywind says:
August 8, 2021 at 3:27 am
At no point in the story or history of Gondor does Tolkien ever mention the specifically having or practicing slavery. Corsairs of Umbar practiced slavery, Haradrim most likely too, Easterlings back in the First Age kept slaves in Beleriand once they conquered the Hithlum and House of Hador, hell Tuor himself spend few years as a slave working for Lorgan until his escape. Then there is the slavery implied at the most corrupt period of Numenor, which was then a colonial empire of sorts, yet the Faithful who founded the new kingdoms would have held higher moral standard and their laws would probably not allow slavery to continue. Faithful themselves faced persecution in Numenor and so many migrated to the continent. Elendil upon founding the Realms-in-Exile would have enacted the law, or returned to the good times of law on Numenor, but many of the bad practices of later stage of pride and glory as Tolkien would put it, would be disbanded and discontinued. Notice that none of the ‘good’ free peoples keeps slaves, every worker and craftsman is also a free man, and not even peasants are ‘enslaved’ or feudally tied to their land or in any way under enforced ‘servitude’. In the same way the Rohirrim, who resemble somewhat the norse scandinavian societies mixed with Anglo-Saxons, also don’t have slaves (or thralls as it would have been called, and even the Rohirrim POW are freed eventually! Aragorn does the same he frees all prisoners taken in battles). Gondor even in the past in it’s ‘imperial glory’ doesn’t appear to have any sort of slavery, even though there were these so called ‘hostages’ of the sons of kings of Harad living at the court of the gondorian kings in the capital, but this practicve of keeping royal hostages is historically something else, they are given limited freedom and are not slaves in any definition of the term, merely political leverage, plus they would be no doubt raised with the intent of making them more friendly towards Gondor unlike their fathers, to make them more cooperative in the future.

From what I know of history some of these royal hostages actually were treated well while waiting for being ransomed (particularly the hostage of high status). The Rohirrim during War of the Ring had the prisoners of war after battle of Hornburg to repair some of the damage and they were released, so their labor was only enacted as a form of punishment and recompense for what they did but not done maliciously.

Personally with Morgoth and Luthien I was picturing it more along lines that Morgoth was simply wanted to corrupt her, as destroying the beauty and innocence was his chief delight, not to mention that Luthien was unique being, of great power, she could have been useful to him, though the Ainur can engage in sexual acts and get pleasure from all those ‘carnal desires’ I doubt that Morgoth even in his state of corruption was truly interested in those matters for their very sake, he was also pretty possessive and so could be not only towards objects but people too. Even his attempt at ‘ravishing Arien’ in the various drafts wasnt tl ‘produce fiery offspring but to take into himself her powers’.

I have a question now what are your thoughts regarding the Nature of Middle-earth tome? Some of it’s contents are previewed, what do you think about this material?

Michael Martinez says:
August 8, 2021 at 9:48 am
I haven’t read any of the reviews and I’ll probably wait a while before reading the book.

It looks like TheOneRing.Net is spreading the idea (from the book) that elvish gestation lasted 100 years (which contradicts what is published in other books), so I guess at some point I’ll be writing an article about that. But no plan to do so any time soon.

fantasywind says:
August 8, 2021 at 1:46 pm
Some portion of the book are available online earlier and can be found circulating already on the web as you said. Those are supposedly never before seen drafts, another part of the constantly evolving vision of Tolkien so there are different versions (which may explain the confusion as some will pick and choose particular fragment while dismissing another version in the same book, people are sometimes going wild and get weird in fandom regarding these sorts of things) it still amazes me how productive he was. It would be nice at one point to hear the thoughts regarding those writings of such a ‘Tolkien scholar’ like yourself. Apparently there is also a note on elven economics there, concerning agriculture and a bit more on economic relations in Beleriand, of course most of these writings seem to be for the revised ’round version’ of the world so to make it more ‘scientifically’ probable, the contents supposedly deal with a lot of topics, from the elven life cycle and including further notes on elven procreation and sexuality, time and it’s perception and the aging, as well as some random bits like ‘bear dances’ in Numenor (in Forostar) and in general the bodies of elves, powers of the Valar, more on Cuivieneyarma and the Great March of the Elves etc.

T.A. Midtrød says:
August 11, 2021 at 10:39 am
I don’t know why people keep bringing up the issue of slaves in Gondor. As far as I can tell, slavery is exclusively associated with evil in Tolkien’s mythos. Morgoth held slaves; Sauron had slaves; Saruman did, too, in his fallen state; and orcs (goblins) are said to have had slaves in the Hobbit. Slaveholding is thus everywhere associated with evil.

I can’t think of a single hint that either the Eldar or the Edain–nor, for that matter, dwarves–ever had slaves. Indeed, Túrin didn’t even know what a thrall was until Sador told him. Slavery came to Dor-lómin when it was overrun by men in the service of Angand; that is, with the triumph of evil over good. The lords of the Edain and the Eldar are “the free lords of the free” (as Boromir put it); Morgoth is “lord of slaves” (as Fingolfin taunted him with). The Númenoreans seem to have (I believe) raided Middle-Earth for slaves, but that was in their fallen state. It’s a sign of the creeping evil that came with the darkening of Númenor.

Slavery is (as nigh as I can tell) always associated with the servants of the enemy and the spread of evil, and the only argument for Gondorian slaveholding I can think of is the good old uzi rule.

Tessa says:
August 11, 2021 at 11:18 am
I asked the Elrond/Elros question to Tumblr, and someone came up with Letter 211, where it is said that the sons of Feanor named them based on where they found them (Elrond in a cave, Elros playing in the water outside) and The Problem of Ros, where it’s said that Elwing named them prophetically. I don’t have the books to check for myself, but that explains my confusion. I wonder if they were given the same names separately by Elwing and Maglor, and that’s why it’s said to be “prophetic”, though I can’t imagine that Elwing knew about the kidnapping in advance…

Michael Martinez says:
August 11, 2021 at 11:23 am
Tolkien changed his mind on the details, so there is no canonical or fully correct answer to the question about the meanings of their names. Take any definitive answer from anyone with a grain of salt.

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