Short Questions and Answers, Volume 9
While I lay recuperating from my heart surgery last year, people kindly left many questions for the blog. I still have a queue of older questions I mean to get to, but I wanted to do another “Short Questions and Answers” post to clear some of the more recent backlog.
Q: Will Elves and Men Meet Again?
ANSWER: I’ve always thought that Tolkien imagined they would meet again. This question was submitted in late 2022:
I have a question regarding the famous Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth. It is undoubtedly one of the greatest creations of our beloved JRR, but certainly it is a tricky text, with a lot of intresting topics faced. My question is specifically about Finrod’s last phrase, the iconic “But you are not for Arda. Whither you go, may you find light. Await us there, my brother and me.”
Is it possible somehow for humans and elves to “meet again” after death, even though their fates are entirely different?
I wouldn’t go so far as to say “their fates are entirely different”. Tolkien envisioned Time and Space as being somehow finite. That is, there is an End the timing of which is only known to Iluvatar. And that End may not be the end of Time and Space but rather the end of the guardianship of the Valar.
In at least one of his letters Tolkien said the Elves were biologically human. It’s their spiritual fate that differs from the Fate of Men. But the Elves don’t know what happens to their spirits after the End (of things as we know them, mythologically). I just don’t see Iluvatar destroying the spirits of his Children. But Tolkien never explicitly stated in any writing I can think of that there would be an opportunity for reunion.
So I’ve always imagined that the Elves’ spirits would eventually end up in the same place as Men’s spirits.
Q: Did Tolkien Leave Behind Any Prequels?
ANSWER: I also received this question in late 2022. The answer is a short and simple “Yes … and No.”
I mean, technically, he left behind The Silmarillion and its companion works “Valaquenta”, “Akallabeth”, and “Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age”. But they had to be finished by his son Christopher. However, I’m sure the question is more about previously unseen, unfinished works that might yet be published.
As of today (well, also as of late 2022), all the unpublished prequel-like works have already been published. That includes the 1960 partial rewrite of The Hobbit (in a style similar to The Lord of the Rings), all the stories in Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle-earth, and various partially written stories that have been mentioned or republished or reconstructed.
So far as I know, there is nothing left waiting to see the light of day except random notes stuffed away in a couple of library collections, and even many of those have been cited or published in various obscure works.
Q: What Do You (Michael) Think of The Rings of Power?
ANSWER: On a scale of 0 to 100, where 0 represents I absolutely hate it, consign these miscreants to the deepest pits of Utumno and 100 represents OMG! I love it! Take my money! You’re in my will!, I’d put my sentiment for the first season of the Amazon show somewhere in the 60s. Lower 60s.
I like it more than I dislike some things about it. I love the hobbits (that’s what the Harfoots are – they just can’t legally call them hobbits, or Hobbits). I like the Stranger.
I’m okay with Galadriel as she’s written/acted/directed but not really her journey. The whole Galadriel sub-plot makes no sense to me, but then it’s easy to be an armchair producer and critic. As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, the Amazon team had to create an entire story with almost no reference to the Second Age J.R.R. Tolkien wrote about. They were contractually forbidden to use the most detailed and interesting source material.
Basically, they had their legs cut off, their arms tied behind them, and one eye covered and were told to run a relay race. Naturally many people despised what the producers came up with. But it’s not my show, not my budget, and not my problem.
As a viewer I rolled my eyes at a few key parts of the story, but overall I think it works as a story and we might as well go along for the ride and enjoy the journey. It’s not J.R.R. Tolkien’s Middle-earth or Second Age but it never could be. So I’m not going to stress about it.
Q: What was Tolkien’s inspiration for underground kingdoms?
ANSWER: From the middle of 2022 came this question:
I am not sure whether Dwarves have always been associated with underground kingdoms or whether Tolkien made that popular, but even Elves have them. Thranduil’s Halls and Nargothrond come to mind. While I understand that Dwarves love to mine ores, I don’t really understand the motivation behind such dwellings when it comes to the Elves.
Welsh mines, French caves, Alpine valleys, Greek and Norse mythology – take your pick.
The underground journey is a common motif in European mythology, folklore, literature, and history. There are numerous stories of fantastic and historical underground cities and fortresses. Tolkien grew up on a literary tradition filled with such references.
And many scholars argue that his Elves bear a strong resemblance to the Irish Tuatha De Danaan, who transited to an underground life after mere mortal men began to settle in the British Isles. The Book of Lost Tales, which is set in England, leans heavily on that tradition.
J.R.R. Tolkien didn’t need to look far or deep for inspiration for underground themes. It would be naive to argue he got it all from any one source, but it might be possible to trace some of his details to specific sources. I’m not sure if there is any value in that.
Q: How Did the Fellowship Sustain Themselves after Leaving Rivendell?
ANSWER: Here’s another question from mid-2022:
Logistics. It’s not something Tolkien spends much time talking about, but I’ve always wondered how the Fellowship sustained themselves after leaving Rivendell. According to the chronology, they left Rivendell on 25 December 3018, and did not arrive in Lorien until 15 January 3019. That’s 3 weeks on the road, engaging in strenuous traveling, fighting, going up and down a mountain, marching through Moria, etc… I guess they all had backpacks of some sort when they left Rivendell, but only had one pony to carry provisions. With 9 members of the fellowship, eating 3 meals a day (hobbits maybe more) x 21 days, that is a total of 567 meals. There’s no way they could have carried enough supplies with them. I guess they must have spent a lot of time hunting and gathering for food on their way south from Rivendell to Moria?
Well, far be it from me to second-guess what the author had in mind, but I do know that they didn’t necessarily need to eat 3 meals a day. I mean, travelers don’t need to eat 3 times a day.
However, my guess is that Tolkien imagined they’d do some foraging – and maybe some fishing and hunting – along the way. I’m no survival expert but I do know that it’s possible to forage all year round in the northern continents (North America and Europe). People have lived that way for thousands of years. Sure, we’ve learned to preserve foods through the winter and our ancient and medieval ancestors came up with some clever ways to do that, but there are nuts, fruits, and greens aplenty that can be found in the wild throughout the winter months.
Tolkien probably knew that. And Aragorn, Legolas, and Gandalf were surely able to teach their companions what to look for. Boromir probably would have had a good idea. Sam, being a gardener, might also have known some things to look for. Merry and Frodo probably knew how to fish as well.
As for how much time they would have needed to spend hunting and gathering, well, it’s not like they were busy doing much other than walking anyway. They could have foraged as they moved along. That might be part of what Tolkien had in mind with all the map-reading they apparently did. Aragorn and the Rangers (and Elrond’s folk) also scouted out those lands. They would have been able to provide the Fellowship with ideas on where to look for wild foods.
See Also
Short Questions and Answers, Volume 8
Short Questions and Answers, Volume 7
Short Questions and Answers, Volume 6
Another Round of Short Answers and Questions
Answers for Short Questions from Tolkien Fans
More Questions with Short Answers
# # #
Have you read our other Tolkien and Middle-earth Questions and Answers articles?
“However, my guess is that Tolkien imagined they’d do some foraging – and maybe some fishing and hunting – along the way.”
Tolkien hardly speaks of it, but I had assumed this was what he had in mind. He had already provided an example of Aragorn successfully killing a deer in the Midgewater Marshes, to supplement the hobbits’ provisions, and this creates a reasonable expectation that this sort of thing would continue in later overland journeying by Frodo and friends. He just presumably didn’t want to bog down the story by mentioning every hunting foray.
And as you say, there is plenty of precedent. I think for example of the journeys of Dr John Rae in the low Arctic of North America, searching for Sir John Franklin’s expedition in 1848-54. Most of the time his party was not much bigger than the Fellowship, and they travelled for much longer stretches of time in considerably more inhospitable lands (without any horses!) than eastern Eriador successfully, and they did this by regular hunting and fishing (salmon, caribou, etc.). They had canoes for some of the journeying (which obviously makes carrying supplies easier), but then you see another reason why Aragorn was so grateful for Celeborn’s gift of the elven boats.
I think even a very limited amount of game could easily make a 21 day journey like this feasible.
It just occurred to me that Sam had Gollum go find some rabbits when they were passing through Ithilien. So, yes, mentioning every hunting and fishing exercise would have been a tedious addition to the story.
“But Tolkien never explicitly stated in any writing I can think of that there would be an opportunity for reunion.
So I’ve always imagined that the Elves’ spirits would eventually end up in the same place as Men’s spirits.”
Wut.
I guess that sounds like a bit of a leap of logic, the way I worded it.
I just mean that when I “fill in the gap” as a reader, I conclude that the Elvish spirits wouldn’t simply cease to exist once Time and Space reach the End Iluvatar has appointed for them. So, if I’m going to assume that, I must also assume something else awaits the Elves.
Why not assume they end up in the same ultimate fate as Mens’ spirits? They’re both Children of Iluvatar.
To some people, the Elves’ ultimate fate seems to be the reverse of the Uzi Rule: Tolkien never said anything about it so they must just cease to exist! Given all of his statements and beliefs, it seems logical that the Elves will ultimately be gathered unto Iluvatar. Even the Dwarves have a role after the Last Battle and the End of the World, so why not Elves?
Tolkien does mention that the Fellowship’s meals in the wilderness were mostly cold and cheerless, so it’s reasonable to imagine that they weren’t all that substantial. And yes, it’s unlikely that they and their pony could carry enough food been them to sustain them for several weeks, without replenishing. When discussing the journey from Bree to Rivendell, Aragorn says he has some skill as a hunter should the need arise. When it came to the journey of the Fellowship, Tolkien probably thought details about how they eked out their supplies were unnecessary. Just as he left out almost all of what, if anything, they all talked about en route.
As far as the show is concerned….I actually didn’t like what they did with Hobbits at all, nor the Stranger, obvious wizard…so perceptions varies I suppose hehe….in any case I don’t know where that weird ‘they have not right to use term hobbit’ comes from….Amazon got the rights to Lotr appendices…of course they would have the name hobbit involved 🙂 in any case the changes to lore they did prevent from the name Hobbit actualyl appearing…for these Harfoots who in Tolkien were canonically ‘hole diggers’ hole builders so ‘holbytlan’ and so were named Hobbits by other clans Fallohides and Stoors, none of that is in the show so…..and since Harfoots don’t build the holes to live in then they cannot be named hobbits haha 🙂 seriously in the show they are dumber smaller versions of Wainriders…or rather wain pullers :).
Jokes aside, Fellowship moving from Rivendell certainly had supplies and provisions for the road which properly rationed would have lasted for a long time to them. Obviously Aragorn already long before said that “I have some skill as a hunter” (and with Legolas the archer hunting would be easy) so he could have foraged, though I’m certain that the travelling food rations would be more than enough…Hobbits in any case still complained about not being able to eat to their fill as they were used to :). Bill the pony carried a lot of the supplies:
“All were well furnished by Elrond with thick warm clothes, and they had jackets and cloaks lined with fur. Spare food and clothes and blankets and other needs were laden on a pony, none other than the poor beast that they had brought from Bree.”
That early part of the journey they rarely even had chance to properly cook something:
” Though the Company was well clad, they seldom felt warm, either moving or at rest. They slept uneasily during the middle of the day, in some hollow of the land, or hidden under the tangled thorn-bushes that grew in thickets in many places. In the late afternoon they were roused by the watch, and took their chief meal: cold and cheerless as a rule, for they could seldom risk the lighting of a fire. In the evening they went on again, always as nearly southward as they could find a way.”
Each member of the fellowship would have carried his pack I guess containing the food too. When they reached Hollin:
“That morning they lit a fire in a deep hollow shrouded by great bushes of holly, and their supper-breakfast was merrier than it had been since they set out. They did not hurry to bed afterwards, for they expected to have all the night to sleep in, and they did not mean to go on again until the evening of the next day.”
…
“‘Luckily our fire made little smoke, and had burned low before the crebain came,’ said Aragorn. ‘It must be put out and not lit again.’
‘Well if that isn’t a plague and a nuisance!’ said Pippin. The news: no fire, and a move again by night, had been broken to him, as soon as he woke in the late afternoon. ‘All because of a pack of crows! I had looked forward to a real good meal tonight: something hot.’
‘Well, you can go on looking forward,’ said Gandalf. ‘There may be many unexpected feasts ahead for you. For myself I should like a pipe to smoke in comfort, and warmer feet. However, we are certain of one thing at any rate: it will get warmer as we get south.'”
…
“In the late afternoon, while the others were finishing their breakfast, Gandalf and Aragorn went aside together and stood looking at Caradhras. Its sides were now dark and sullen, and its head was in grey cloud. Frodo watched them, wondering which way the debate would go. ”
So I don’t think they made many meals, only the bare necessity so to not weaken during the march. Also at the pass of Caradhras Gandalf gave each a mouthful of miruvor which definitely allowed them to gain enough energy for a while :).
“As soon as Frodo had swallowed a little of the warm and fragrant liquor he felt a new strength of heart, and the heavy drowsiness left his limbs. The others also revived and found fresh hope and vigour.”
This type of journey is certainly no joke:
“Frodo’s legs ached. He was chilled to the bone and hungry; and his head was dizzy as he thought of the long and painful march downhill. Black specks swam before his eyes. He rubbed them, but the black specks remained.”
“In any case I don’t know where that weird ‘they have not right to use term hobbit’ comes from….Amazon got the rights to Lotr appendices…of course they would have the name hobbit involved”
I’m not any better informed on this point than anyone else in fandom, but it was my understanding (from reading several pre-show interviews and articles), that if there was no mention of “hobbits” (by J.R.R. Tolkien) in the Second Age, then the showrunners couldn’t call the characters “hobbits”. Now, maybe that’s ME reading things wrong or maybe it’s someone else reading things wrong. But that is the basis of my comments.
I’m not entirely sure, but I believe the choice not to use the word Hobbit was Amazon’s. The reasoning is that the three clans of hobbits only came together as one people under that name in Eriador in the late Third Age. We already know that when they were living near Mirkwood with Theoden’s ancestors, they were called holbytlan, and hobbit was a supposed softening of that.
Theoden’s ancestors lived near Greenwood/Mirkwood for centuries in the Third Age when we know there were Stoors still in the vicinity. I’m not sure Tolkien imagined any such connection in the 2nd Age. But like I said, I’m no better informed on this matter than anyone else. I suppose the Amazon folks could have felt “hobbit” carries too much cinematic baggage. That kind of makes sense.
Some further interesting thing regarding the use of names, the show uses openly the name of the capital of Numenor Armenelos, (I think Pharazon says it?) and yet that name doesn’t appear anywhere in lotr or appendices…so it’s weird, then also we know that they can’t name the city in Eregion Ost-in-Edhil as this is only in UT so…the show only gives general name…Eregion :). The articles in question may not actually know for sure too 🙂 but the showmakers clearly don’t care much for the linguistic aspect and so the name ‘holbytlan’ which leads to ‘hobbit’ is not used in the show…but hey the Harfoots in the show are the only people of their kind, we don’t see a trace of Fallohides or Stoors (other than the fact tha these show Harfoots are multiracial hahah due to insanity of the casting choices 🙂 being more to the modern agenda of inclusion than lore) and obviously the lore on the hobbits is all wrong in the show. I mean Harfoots don’t dig in the earth holes to live in…in Second Age there is no trace of Hobbits at all but the show doesn’t care about that either and inserted them just because they are recognizeable feature….anyone analyzing the historical like feasibility and ‘realism’ of the show’s depiction of societies will also tell that the show’s harfoot clan is not really realistic in any way, as nomads they would be illiterate but we see them having books and some weird writing in them (even though they don’t have cattle or anything so where do they get vellum or parchment? No idea) and so on and on.
“_Hobbit_ was the name usually applied by the Shire-folk to all their kind. Men called them _Halflings_ and the Elves _Periannath._ The origin of the word _hobbit_ was by most forgotten. It seems, however, to have been at first a name given to the Harfoots by the Fallohides and Stoors, and to be a worn-down form of a word preserved more fully in Rohan: _holbytla_ ‘hole-builder’.”
Obviousl other texts are outside the licensing but a fragment from HoME is showing way more ‘realistic’ take of Tolkien himself on early hobbit kind societies:
“Hobbits on the other hand were in nearly all respects normal Men, but of very short stature. (..)
They were not as numerous or variable as ordinary Men, but evidently more numerous and adaptable to different modes of life and habitat than the Drûgs, and when they are first encountered in the histories already showed divergences in colouring, stature, and build, and in their ways of life and preferences for different types of country to dwell in (…) In their unrecorded past they must have been a primitive, indeed ‘savage’ people, but when we meet them they had (in varying degrees) acquired many arts and customs by contact with Men, and to a less extent with Dwarves and Elves. With Men of normal stature they recognized their close kinship, whereas Dwarves or Elves, whether friendly or hostile, were aliens, with whom their relations were uneasy and clouded by fear. Bilbo’s statement (…) that the cohabitation of Big Folk and Little Folk in one settlement at Bree was peculiar and nowhere else to be found was probably true in his time (the end of the Third Age); but it would seem that actually Hobbits had liked to live with or near to Big Folk of friendly kind, who with their greater strength protected them from many dangers and enemies and other hostile Men, and received in exchange many services. For it is remarkable that the western Hobbits preserved no trace or memory of any language of their own. The language they spoke when they entered Eriador was evidently adopted from the Men of the Vales of Anduin (related to the Atani, / in particular to those of the House of Bëor [> of the Houses of Hador and of Bëor]); and after their adoption of the Common Speech they retained many words of that origin. This indicates a close association with Big Folk; though the rapid adoption of the Common Speech in Eriador shows Hobbits to have been specially adaptable in this respect. As does also the divergence of the Stoors, who had associated with Men of different sort before they came to the Shire.
The vague tradition preserved by the Hobbits of the Shire was that they had dwelt once in lands by a Great River, but long ago had left them, and found their way through or round high mountains, when they no longer felt at ease in their homes because of the multiplication of the Big Folk and of a shadow of fear that had fallen on the Forest.”