Q: What Do We Know about Thorin’s Halls in the Blue Mountains?
ANSWER: Here is another thoughtful, long question that someone submitted back in early 2017. Only poor health kept me from responding to this question for so long, so I apologize for the very long delay. That said, this is one of those questions for which there is very little text-based information.
Do we know anymore about Thorin’s Halls in the Blue Mountains both before and after the Quest to the Lonely Mountain?
I have always been intrigued by the fact that Thorin and Company are barely armed when they appear at Bag End. Although they are in exile Thorin’s halls would have been around for 100 or so years so would they not have mined in that time? Would there have been a guard of some description? I find it odd that when embarking on the Quest more was not done by the dwarfs to obtain weapons (that we know of)
Were the halls loaned to the Longbeards until they refounded Erebor or Khazad-Dum? Since Erebor was reclaimed what do you think is likely to have happened? Would they have fallen into disuse if the remaining Longbeards moved back East, would a population have remained and been ruled by a relation of Dain’s or by another dwarf lord? Or would the Broadbeam/Firebeards have reclaimed their land?
I don’t know of any text or note anywhere in Tolkien’s published writings that explains in detail how Thorin came to live in the Ered Luin. We just know that some of his people settled there for a time. It’s conceivable that after Belegost and Nogrod were abandoned that no one really claimed the Ered Luin among the Dwarves any more. It’s also possible that Gil-galad assumed full control over the mountains when he established his realm at the end of the First Age. In that case, Thorin would have been living as a guest of the Elves living under Cirdan’s authority.
As for the lack of armed guards, the Shire-folk don’t seem to have been very dangerous. They were certainly not thieves. The whole business about Gandalf recruiting Bilbo to be a burglar is partly a joke. The Hobbit makes light of many habits and traditions of “polite society”, and though we usually describe it as a children’s book it is also a light parody. Bilbo the Burglar is a parody of the classic litetary “gentleman farmer” who goes off on an adventure.
Who in the Shire would steal from or threaten either the Elves or the Dwarves? Even if you look at their relations through the lens of the Lord of the Rings, which is a much more serious work, or “The Quest of Erebor” (in Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth), there was no conflict or hostility between the Shire-folk and their neighbors. The Dunedain are only said to have maintained a guard at Sarn Ford, where Men occasionally came to trade with the Southfarthing.
As for what probably happened to Thorin’s halls after Erebor was reclaimed, I suspect Tolkien imagined they would have been abandoned if there was no vital reason to maintain them. Dain II Ironfoot summoned as many of the Longbeards as would come to repopulate the Lonely Mountain. Their rightful kingdom was established there, and they had good reason to go.
But it’s also possible that any non-Longbeard Dwarves who remained in the Ered Luin simply assumed control over Thorin’s halls. One can even imagine some sort of contract being drawn up either for the temporary use of the halls by the Longbeards or for the sale of the halls to new owners. But there is no direct textual support for such an assumption.
We do know from the early chapters of the Lord of the Rings that Dwarves continued to pass back and forth across the Shire. So presumably there were still Dwarves living somewhere in the Ered Luin. They need not be Longbeard Dwarves.
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Hmm interesting topic, I also wondered about it, there is very little known about Thorin’s Halls, even it’s exact location seems to be problematic. It would be nice to imagine that such an outpost would be profitable to maintain for the revived kingdom under the Mountain for contact and trade with other dwarf communities in Ered Luin and possibly trade with Elves of Cirdan (who knows maybe Cirdan’s folk still were diving for pearls in Third Age and Dwarves in First Age loved pearls :)) it appears that most of the Dwarves of two other clans (Broadbeams and Firebeards, that build ancient cities of Nogrod and Belegost) lived mostly in southern parts of Blue Mountains, while the Thorin’s Halls were supposedly somewhat up north of Little Lune river.
“2799
Battle of Nanduhirion before the East-gate of Moria. Dáin Ironfoot returns to the Iron Hills. Thráin II and his son Thorin wander westwards. They settle in the South of Ered Luin beyond the Shire (2802).”
The Return of the King, LoTR Appendix B, The Tale of Years: The Third Age
“So Thráin and Thorin with what remained of their following (among whom were Balin and Glóin) returned to Dunland, and soon afterwards they removed and wandered in Eriador, until at last they made a home in exile in the east of the Ered Luin beyond the Lune. Of iron were most of the things that they forged in those days, but they prospered after a fashion, and their numbers slowly increased. But, as Thrór had said, the Ring needed gold to breed gold, and of that or any other precious metal they had little or none.”
The Return of the King, LoTR Appendix A, Annals of the Kings and Rulers: Durin’s Folk
“… when Thráin was lost [Thorin] was ninety-five, a great Dwarf of proud bearing. He had no Ring, and (for that reason maybe) he seemed content to remain in Eriador. There he laboured long, and gained such wealth as he could; and his people were increased by many of the wandering Folk of Durin that heard of his dwelling and came to him. Now they had fair halls in the mountains, and store of goods and their days did not seem so hard, though in their songs they spoke ever of the Lonely Mountain far away, and the treasure and the bliss of the Great Hall in the light of the Arkenstone.”
Unfinished Tales, Part 3, Ch 3, The Quest of Erebor: Appendix
Some sort of small colony or trading post being made in it seems within realm of possibilities.
So, before anyone submits a question that may not be answered for a year or longer (sorry), I agree with fantasywind. I’ve always imagined Thorin’s halls were very close to the Shire and probably in the southern Ered Luin. The (majority of the) Sindar left that region early in the Second Age, according to Tolkien. So it makes sense to me that he would picture Dwarves moving into the area over time. And I don’t mean that would be because of elf-dwarf hostility. It just kind of makes sense to me.
Not to go off track, but I have a question that’s been bugging me here larely. I have recently been re-reading The Hobbit (my edition is based on the 1966 version so is supposed to be up to date edit wise) and in the chapter “Riddles in the Dark” I of course found where Bilbo introduced himself but it doesn’t ever mention the Shire, just says “I’m Bilbo Baggins,and I’ve lost my wizard, lost my Dwarves, and lost my way” or something to that affect. Was it mentioned in earlier editions and later dropped, or is it just one of those things JRRT forgot about when he says Gollum heard of the land Baggins was from? Btw Michael, love your column. You always have such great insight into the lore, even on those bits that have little to nothing in print about them. Hope you feel better.
Thank you. “The Shire” is a retcon Tolkien invented for The Lord of the Rings. He would have included it in the revised Hobbit he had begun working on in 1960.
Indeed the name Shire doesn’t appear in The Hobbit proper, but Gollum as Gandalf implies in Fellowship, learned the name of Bilbo’s country during his travels (it is said that Gollum reached even the streets of Dale? If I remember right, and Gandalf says something along the line, ‘we didn’t hide the fact that Bilbo was returning to his land to the west’).
“‘But how did he find that out?’ asked Frodo.
‘Well, as for the name, Bilbo very foolishly told Gollum himself; and after that it would not be difficult to discover his country, once Gollum came out. Oh yes, he came out. His longing for the Ring proved stronger than his fear of the Orcs, or even of the light. After a year or two he left the mountains. You see, though still bound by desire of it, the Ring was no longer devouring him; he began to revive a little. He felt old, terribly old, yet less timid, and he was mortally hungry.
‘Light, light of Sun and Moon, he still feared and hated, and he always will, I think; but he was cunning. He found he could hide from daylight and moonshine, and make his way swiftly and softly by dead of night with his pale cold eyes, and catch small frightened or unwary things. He grew stronger and bolder with new food and new air. He found his way into Mirkwood, as one would expect.’
‘Is that where you found him?’ asked Frodo.
‘I saw him there,’ answered Gandalf, ‘but before that he had wandered far, following Bilbo’s trail. It was difficult to learn anything from him for certain, for his talk was constantly interrupted by curses and threats. “What had it got in its pocketses?” he said. “It wouldn’t say, no precious. Little cheat. Not a fair question. It cheated first, it did. It broke the rules. We ought to have squeezed it, yes precious. And we will, precious!”
‘That is a sample of his talk. I don’t suppose you want any more. I had weary days of it. But from hints dropped among the snarls I even gathered that his padding feet had taken him at last to Esgaroth, and even to the streets of Dale, listening secretly and peering. Well, the news of the great events went far and wide in Wilderland, and many had heard Bilbo’s name and knew where he came from. We had made no secret of our return journey to his home in the West. Gollum’s sharp ears would soon learn what he wanted.’
‘Then why didn’t he track Bilbo further?’ asked Frodo. ‘Why didn’t he come to the Shire?’
‘Ah,’ said Gandalf, ‘now we come to it. I think Gollum tried to. He set out and came back westward, as far as the Great River. But then he turned aside. He was not daunted by the distance, I am sure. No, something else drew him away. So my friends think, those that hunted him for me.”