Q: Where Did These Obscure Middle-earth Facts Come From?
ANSWER: I have often been called a liar and falsely accused of making up things about the pseudo history of Middle-earth. It’s not easy, when you’re engaged in an online discussion, to meticulously document every source of obscure information that comes to mind when responding to a question. It would be fair to say that in writing a blog post one has the opportunity to be thorough. I could start a draft today and come back to it every week for six months and finally publish a great article loaded with obscure facts and references. But that’s not going to happen. Sorry.
If I mention something about Tolkien’s fantastic history that is new to you, it usually means one of two things:
- I know something you don’t
- I’m misremembering something I think I know
Either way, I’m not lying or making up stuff.
It’s almost always impossible to dredge up the source for random, obscure facts that I mention in passing when writing a blog post. And I try – when I receive these questions – to look for whatever inspired me to say something in the first place. Unfortunately, finding a specific 1-2 sentence passage in 20+ books is time-consuming. There was a time when I’d waste 6 hours searching for some obscure sentence just to prove I wasn’t lying or making up stuff.
Eventually I stopped caring about the false accusations but people still want to know where I find all these random facts. There is a story I like to tell about Dragon*Con. I ran the Tolkien and Middle-earth track for 2 years. I started it after having run the Hercules & Xena track for 2 years. Prior to that (and during those 4 years) I was involved in other conventions. So I was worn out and handed the Tolkien track to Jincey Chambless. I promised her I would help out in any way I could until she was comfortable running the show. And she did a great job.
But one night Jincey called me up and said, “I’m doing a trivia contest. I need questions that even you cannot answer.”
Flattering as that is, it’s a hard concept for anyone to cope with. We don’t know what we don’t know, to quote Donald Rumsfeld (at least – I think he said that, but I’m not going to check). After thinking about this for a while I decided there was only one thing I could do: open my books to the least thumbed-through sections, close my eyes, twirl my hand in the air, and drop a fingertip to a random sentence on the page.
Thus was born the question, “Who was Terrence Tiller?” and many others that would have left me begging for mercy in a Tolkien trivia contest. I never expected to see those questions used – but that will have to wait for another time.
There are parts of all the books I don’t know well. These are usually the places where I find all these obscure, random details that – for whatever reason – stick in my craw and surface again when I’m madly typing away on the keyboard. And that brings us to the question that sparked THIS blog post. I received the following message in January 2019:
I have read your very interesting article “How Was Beleriand Destroyed in the War of Wrath?”
I’d like to know more about the text that says that Eglarest and Brithombar were seized by the army of Valinor, for I can’t find it anywhere.
It’s been 9 months and every time I look at that message the first thought that comes to mind is, “I have no idea. How am I supposed to know where I got that from?”
But There is a Source, of Course
It took a while (not 9 months, mind you) but I found two texts that might be what I had in mind when I wrote that article in October 2012. It’s been over 7 years since then. If I had any notes I was referring to at the time I don’t even know where they would be packed away, if they still exist. They could have been in a text file on a computer I no longer use.
While thinking about writing this post I found 2 texts that say Fionwë fought a battle at Eglorest (Eglarest in The Silmarillion) when he brought the Host of Valinor to Middle-earth. These texts are in The Shaping of Middle-earth (Volume IV of The History of Middle-earth) and The Lost Road and Other Writings (Volume V). I don’t know of any other possible sources for the anecdote.
Based on what I wrote in 2012, I’d say I was probably compressing two separate pieces of information: first, that pre-LoTR texts containing the only details of the War of Wrath said that Fionwë fought a battle at Eglorest; second, that The Silmarillion indicated that Orcs inhabited Brithombar and Eglarest after Cirdan fled to Balar.
Is It Okay to Mix Details from Different Texts?
Years ago in his fantastic essay “Elvish as She is Spoke”, Carl Hostetter lamented the ease with which people mixed details from texts that J.R.R. Tolkien wrote at different times. He said these people were engaging in “conflation and circularity” – and I whole-heartedly agree with his point. The linguistic arguments that extrapolate ideas from older texts are similar to arguments about the pseudo history – not incredibly reliable or accurate in nature.
Through the years I have maintained that (where the history is concerned) if you find two points that don’t conflict in any way then it may be okay to assume that J.R.R. Tolkien may not have intended to omit or defactualize the older statement. But there will never be much if any textual support for such a conclusion. Sometimes one must accept that Tolkien simply decided to drop an idea because it didn’t suit his intention as an author.
There is no way to know in retrospect why he dropped a fact mentioned in one narrative from other narratives that followed it, retelling the same story. So Fionwë/Eönwë’s assault on Morgoth’s forces became clouded by the obscurity of “none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands” marched with the Host of Valinor. I don’t know how Tolkien envisioned the War of Wrath unfolding (after he finished writing The Lord of the Rings) any more than you or anyone else.
But I was asked to extrapolate from the available texts and that is what I did. The article has proved to be very popular through the years. I admit to being quite proud of it. And it does encapsulate many years of consideration, speculation, and research that led up to that point in my life.
Other Curious Details for Which the Sources are Obscure
I occasionally write that the Folk of Bor had kinsfolk who lived in northern Eriador during the First Age, and possibly the Second Age. These clans were farmers – as were Bor’s people. They were friendly to the Edain and Eldar, and so presumably didn’t serve Morgoth in his wars against the Noldor and their allies. But all of that comes from about 2 sentences in a footnote in one of the History of Middle-earth books.
By looking at other facts Tolkien provided about the wars and Eriador, it is easy to propose how this obscure item might fit into the bigger picture. But that’s not part of Tolkien’s pseudo history. It’s a theory – some people would say “speculation presented as fact” (although that is never my intention).
In December 2018 another person wrote: “I’ve searched your site and didn’t find an answer, so I thought I’d ask: what do you think is the significance of Tolkien choosing the numbers 9, 7, 3 for the number of lesser rings of power?”
This topic deserves a very lengthy essay – one which I’m probably never going to write. But Christopher Tolkien discussed the numbers of rings in The History of Middle-earth and although I don’t recall him summarizing it thus, essentially he explained that his father just tried out different numbers and changed things around until he settled on the 1, the 3, the 7, and the 9.
I’m not aware of any symbolic intention on Tolkien’s part. I suspect someone who studies metre and rhyme would be able to comment in greater depth about the composition of the Ring-rhyme. I suspect the poetic needs of the full verse had a greater influence on Tolkien’s choices than anything else.
Here is another question I received in May 2019:
Was Celebrian not banned from Valinor, since she is Galadriel’s daughter?
It is known that Galadriel accompanied the group of Ñoldor that were banned due to the kinslaying, so she was included in the ban.
We read that her daughter Celebrian wanted to return to Valinor after the orc attack. Since she is the daughter of a ‘banned’, why could she return?
According to The Silmarillion, the ban was lifted at the end of the War of Wrath, when the Noldor were forgiven. This text (apparently composed or heavily edited by Christopher Tolkien) says: “Yet not all the Eldalië were willing to forsake the Hither Lands where they had long suffered and long dwelt; and some lingered many an age in Middle-earth. Among those were Cirdan the Shipwright, and Celeborn of Doriath, with Galadriel his wife, who alone remained of those who had led the Noldor to exile in Beleriand.”
It is only in Tolkien’s notes composed for The Road Goes Ever On (featuring Donald Swann’s musical scores for several of the songs in The Lord of the Rings) that we learn the full nature of Galadriel’s state of exile. In The Lord of the Rings she refers obliquely to her status in her farewall song to the Fellowship, but she had already passed the test (Frodo offered her the One Ring) and learned she would be allowed to return to the West. These passages confused readers, and that may be why Tolkien wrote his note.
But Galadriel’s ban was personal. It didn’t apply to her children. At the time Tolkien still thought of Amroth as her son. You must read “The History of Galadriel and Celeborn” in Unfinished Tales to see how Amroth’s relationship with Galadriel shifted. It’s certainly not clearly stated in The Lord of the Rings that he was her son (at the time Tolkien wrote the book).
My point is that these details are scattered throughout the books, and sometimes it’s impossible to piece them all together in a coherent narrative. To this day I’m still not sure whether Amroth should be considered the son of a Sindarin/Silvan prince (Amdir or Malgalad). What if Tolkien would have changed his mind again? Amroth’s parentage is hardly as consistent and well-defined as Gil-galad’s (he was the son of Orodreth, not Fingon, according to Christopher Tolkien’s thorough analysis of the story in The Peoples of Middle-earth).
And There are Possible Story-External Sources, Too
One of my favorite posts on this blog is “Who was Narvi, the Maker of the Doors of Durin?”, which I wrote in November 2011. I’d always wondered if there was any significance to Narvi’s story. Researching the name led me straight to the Mediterranean Sea and the Norse myth about Mimir the giant. It’s complicated but a fantastic dive into Norse history and mythology.
These kinds of obscure extra fabulum (outside the story) details may shed light on Tolkien’s inspirations, and perhaps point the way to interesting stories he might have told had he gotten around to them.
Other extra fabulum points are occasionally brought up by people who look at the parallels between Tolkien’s fiction and his faith. For example, in November 2018 I received this thoughtful comment: “Regarding ‘the Warden of the Keys in Gondor’, you might also look at the officer of the Kingdom of Israel from biblical times whose authority was passed on by Christ to Peter, granting him the Keys of the Kingdom, to bind and to loose. As a devout Catholic, Tolkien was no doubt aware of that connection as well.”
Although I proposed a number of historical precedents that might have inspired Hurin’s title, given the immense impact that Tolkien’s faith had on his description of the Numenoreans and Gondor, it’s hard to rule out a possible Biblical reference like this. Many a thoughtful essay has been written about the significance of March 25 in Tolkien’s history.
As Shrek might say, Tolkien’s fiction is like an onion. It has layers.
And it makes one weep to cut it open and lay bare its secrets.
Speaking of Secrets and Layers …
I received this troubling question in November 2018: “Do orcs have fëar?”
I wish I knew the answer to that question. My guess is that they did, but the details of their nature was never quite settled. Some people would be horrified at the idea, I’m sure, but Tolkien’s Orcs are not cardboard villains waiting to be slaughtered by the heroes of the story.
Speaking of Horror …
I received this question in October 2018: “In regards to ‘Was JRR Tolkien Influenced by HP Lovecraft?’, which I enjoyed, I must ask, what of Ungoliant, and her daughter Shelob? Is there nothing Lovecraftian in them? I’ve always felt it is so.”
Well, I don’t know of any Lovecraftian spiders but I’m hardly a Lovecraft scholar. I enjoyed “At the Mountains of Madness” and wish Guillermo del Toro would make that movie. I think he’d be perfect for it. When I think of Lovecraft I think of gigantic tentacly monsters although his stories were about more than that (“Herbert West-Reanimator” comes to mind).
Of course, much ink has been spent by others in pursuit of explanations of Tolkien’s use of giant spiders. He himself seems to have dismissed any significant influences but that hasn’t prevented people from speculating.
And Some Facts are Overlooked by Readers
Not everyone has read The Silmarillion and of those of us who have, most have a tale or two to tell about falling asleep with the book in our laps. I received this question in September 2018: “Does it say who created the sea creatures, the birds of the skies, and the land creatures.”
If you’ve never read The Silmarillion, I think you should – but it’s very different from The Lord of the Rings. On the other hand, if you have read the book then the answer is in there in the early chapters. The Valar made the Earth and all its living creatures, except for Elves and Men (and maybe possibly except for Bombadil and his aboriginal friends like Goldberry and the River-woman). And Ilúvatar made the spirits that inhabited the Eagles and the Ents. Okay, it’s complicated.
Last Word
I’ve received so many emails asking “Who Were the Members of the White Council” through the years I have – regrettably – stopped acknowledging or responding to them. That article – written in 2011 – remains the best answer I can give.
Like so many of the other topics I’ve discussed here, you must tie a lot of small pieces of information together. And you must accept that we don’t know the answer. In fact, people love to speculate about who the White Council members were.
It’s not something where I would accuse anyone of substituting their opinions for the facts, but if you’re writing fan fiction or a role-playing adventure, then go ahead and make some assumptions. When visualizing Tolkien’s Middle-earth in the finest possible detail, it is often necessary to fill in the gaps. We won’t all do it the same way.
But I think it works better if you can combine as many obscure, non-conflicting details in your personal narrative as possible. And that is really why I have spent so many hours reading these books. It wasn’t so much that I had to answer a question, or defend myself, or prove I was right about anything – it was that I really enjoy digging into all these obscure texts.
And sometimes the random details just poke through when I’m writing about Middle-earth. It’s hard to say where they come from, but they come from somewhere (other than my imagination).
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Have you read our other Tolkien and Middle-earth Questions and Answers articles?
I find it rather silly if folks get all in a tizzy about the historical accuracy of a purely fictional creation written for pure entertainment and delight
The me history is a recount of actual events in nature and time which then can be fact-checked for accuracy comparing various different sources.
I really enjoy your blog, you’ve taken me on some pleasurable journeys. Keep up the great work please, I’ll have another!
Considering all the background material Tolkien left, I think it’s ridiculous that people would assume you are just making stuff up. One of the reasons it took so long to get a sequel to The Hobbit is because Tolkien was spending all his time just creating mythology. He spent years living in Middle Earth, and like the scholar he was, he took notes on nearly everything. So the answer to almost any question about Middle Earth is available if you dig deep enough.