Q: Who Were the Elven-wise Living in Rivendell?
Aside from Glorfindel, who were the ‘Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar’ living in Rivendell at the time of Frodo’s conversation with Gandalf while he recovered in the chapter ‘Many Meetings’?
Was Erestor one of them?
And there was a second question:
Did the power of the Ringwraiths’ rings compare to the ‘First-Born’ who, as he said ‘live at once in both worlds’? This chapter is tantalizing as one wonders why these particular Elves with their ancient strengths did not seek to confront the Ringwraiths more in the story. Could they have rescued the travelers from Weathertop, for example?
Let me answer the second question first: YES. The Elven-lords of Rivendell and/or their retainers could have rescued Aragorn and the Hobbits on Weathertop. But there were no Elves in the vicinity and that is just the way the story goes.
Now, as for comparing the power of the Ringwraiths to Elven-lords, I’m sure we cannot do that rationally. The Ringwraiths displayed several abilities and they were virtually immune to normal means of physical death. After all, they survived the flood that killed at least eight of their horses; and Aragorn said that all weapons which pierced them were destroyed, which implies that some weapons had pierced them. It took Merry’s magic barrow-blade to break the spell that protected the Lord of the Nazgûl so that Éowyn’s sword-stroke could finish him.
So one must ask if even an Elven-lord from over Sea (presumably a Noldorin prince) could have defeated one of the Nazgûl simply by stabbing him with a sword. Maybe they could have forged a sword with similar purpose to the barrow blades, but that’s all speculation. And then one must remember that the Lord of the Nazgûl broke the gate of Minas Tirith. He didn’t just send in the troops with a huge battering ram. He was using spells. His first act upon appearing at the gate was to raise his sword, which action triggered everyone on both sides of the battle to stop what they were doing. I infer from the narrative that he was using his power of fear. And then he “cried aloud in a dreadful voice,
speaking in some forgotten tongue words of power” three times as the hammer struck the gate.
Even Gandalf expressed some doubt about his ability to match the Lord of the Nazgûl, power for power. So I would not be quick to assume that any old Noldorin prince could have defeated him thoroughly. Maybe Glorfindel was up to the task. Maybe not. We’ll never know because Glorfindel never had to complete that test. But we do know clearly from the narrative that Glorfindel was a powerful Elven-lord, and the Lord of the Nazgûl did not treat him lightly.
And Who are the Wise Elves?
Now, returning to the first question which prompted this article, Tolkien never provides a list of the Elves of Elrond’s household. Presumably any elf of substantial standing in Elrond’s community would have attended the council. But they may not all have been available, either. After all, Elrond did send out as many people to find and help Aragorn as he could. They would have to have been powerful and capable of facing the Nine together. Glorfindel said there were not many Elves of that stature, but they apparently all took up the mission. At no point does the narrative say that all of Elrond’s folk had returned.
I should point out here that I wrote an essay in June 2001 titled “Who Is Like the Wise Elf” in which I pondered what Tolkien meant by “the Wise” and “Elven-wise”. I wasn’t really able to resolve the question, although I may have touched upon one possible explanation: Perhaps the Elven-wise were those lords who had somehow directly communed with the Valar and Maiar. Elrond would have had the opportunity to meet at least a few Maiar because he fought against Morgoth at the end of the First Age, and Eönwë is said to have remained in Middle-earth for a time after the war ended.
Gildor Inglorion is a curious character for many reasons, but he was not necessarily a member of Elrond’s community. I bring him up, though, because Tolkien said that Gildor and his folk lived in or near Rivendell. So it’s possible there were other elven lords like Gildor who, while not residing in Elrond’s house, may have dwelt close by. And some of them could have, like Gildor, been on a pilgrimage to the Havens.
Another point I’d like to make is that Tolkien mentions nameless Elven-wise in a few places. The White Council’s membership has long been a matter of speculation among Tolkien’s readers. But in the story of “Aldarion and Erendis” unnamed Elven lords from Tol Eressëa attend the wedding of Aldarion and Erendis. And unnamed elves from Tol Eressëa are mentioned elsewhere in the texts.
Despite Tolkien’s reputation for seemingly naming everyone of significance in The Lord of the Rings, that’s an inaccurate observation. Unnamed Elven nobles are occasionally mentioned throughout the books. Furthermore, the descendants of Finwë, Ingwë, Olwë, and Elwë are not the only princely families among the Eldar. Besides Glorfindel we know of the family of Guilin, an Elven prince from Nargothrond. His sons were Gwindor and Gelmir.
And yet, it is tempting to assume that any unnamed “lord” may have been of a lesser status, perhaps one of the Sindar than a Noldo. I don’t think that is a fair conclusion. Elrond’s house was for all intents and purposes the capital of the Noldorin culture in Middle-earth (at the end of the Third Age). Rivendell was first established as a refuge for Elrond’s army from Lindon and the survivors of Eregion whom he rescued. But, according to “The Tale of Years” in The Lord of the Rings, Rivendell became a permanent outpost in Eriador, an alternative to Eregion. It would seem that for many thousands of years thereafter Rivendell had a substantial population capable of fielding armies. It was only by the end of the Third Age, after the last great exodus of Elves (alluded to in “The Shadow of the Past” where Sam laments the passing of the Elves), that Elrond could no longer field an army.
Elrond’s people were certainly composed of both Noldor and Sindar, and Elves of mixed descent (as was he), but we don’t know their proportions at any given time in the history of Rivendell. Many readers assume that the smiths who reforged Narsil for Aragorn were Noldor; that’s an assumption I myself have made, but there is no basis for that. The Sindar also had capable smiths, and they had thousands of years to learn from both Noldor and Dwarves.
Tolkien Complicated Analysis through Ambiguity
Although we speak of “the Wise” and “the Elven-wise”, these are phrases that Tolkien used in more than one context. Aragorn, for example, is said to have become “elven-wise” through his experience and the tutelage of Gandalf and others. And various characters are referred to as “the Wise”, including Pengolod (a non-canonical or semi-canonical elf of Eregion and/or Tol Eressëa).
In the end, I cannot answer your question in a satisfactory way. It’s a question that has always bothered me, too. I don’t believe Erestor was one of the Elven-wise “lords of the Eldar from over Sea” but there is no reason why he could not be. I just have a feeling that, because of the way he worded things, Tolkien was subtly implying that the Elven-wise (at the end of the Third Age) were few in number and not easily matched by other elf lords. That’s probably just something we’ll probably never know for sure, unless maybe Christopher Tolkien made a passing remark somewhere that I have overlooked.
# # #
Have you read our other Tolkien and Middle-earth Questions and Answers articles?
Speaking of those elven-smiths who reforged Narsil, it is nice to assume they might have been the last remnant of the noldorin Gwaith-i-Mirdain brotherhood from Eregion, it would be kind of poetic to have the smiths (or at least part of the group of those smiths of old) that witnessed if not even participated in the creation of Rings of Power or other wonders of Eregion to reforge the blade that was broken to fight the Dark Lord, in form of atonement for the sins of the past, though that probably is less likely, there’s no way any actual maker of the Rings (of Seven or Nine certainly but maybe of the lesser rings?) was in refuge of Rivendell. Those smiths could easily be also one of those Elven-wise, their power and wisdom would be significant. And about Sindar smiths, Tolkien in various texts mentioned Teleri’s skill as silversmiths (of course in some of those reference, it was also in context of those Teleri of Aman the Falmari, but isn’t it reasonable that the same could be said of remaining Teleri in Middle-earth, the Falathrim folk especially and Sindar as well? Tolkien also wrote that in general Teleri prized silver above gold and the skill as silversmiths would be esteemed even by Noldor the most adept at smithing). The lesser elf lords or elven nobility in general could be kind of like the early version of 12 houses of Gondolin, the elf-lords of those could have been special, Glorfindel being primary example. There could have been many such houses of families of Elves that were simply not mentioned (though it’s interesting to ask what makes an elven noble, is it some significance or power and influence the family holds or something else?).
You might get a kick out of this entry for “noble” from the Online Etymology Dictionary.
noble (adj.)
c. 1200, “illustrious, distinguished; worthy of honor or respect,” from Old French noble “of noble bearing or birth,” from Latin nobilis “well-known, famous, renowned; excellent, superior, splendid; high-born, of superior birth,” earlier *gnobilis, literally “knowable,” from gnoscere “to come to know,” from PIE root *gno- “to know.” The prominent Roman families, which were “well known,” provided most of the Republic’s public officials.
Meaning “distinguished by rank, title, or birth” is first recorded late 13c. Sense of “having lofty character, having high moral qualities” is from c. 1600. A noble gas (1902) is so called for its inactivity or intertness; a use of the word that had been applied in Middle English to precious stones, metals, etc., of similar quality (late 14c.), from the sense of “having admirable properties” (c. 1300).
Hmm ‘gnobilis’ literary knowable, hmm some famous craftsmen or especially skilled scholars could technically become nobles in this meaning :), those who simply distinguished themselves among thousands of other Elves, rather wide criteria hehe :). But we see that such houses, families and kindreds seem to have arose during unrest of the Noldor in Aman:
“Shields also they made displaying the tokens of many houses and kindreds that vied one with another; and these only they wore abroad…” So this could be the beginning of ‘elven nobility’, and naturally there was already royal house, princes of the Noldor.
It’s puzzling to think about who actually lives in Rivendell (aside from named characters like Elrond, Arwen, Erestor and Glorfindel). According to the Tale of Years (Appendix B), in Second Age 1697, “Elrond retreats [from Eregion] with the remnants of the Noldor and founds the refuge of Imladris.” But in the chapter The Ring Goes South, the fellowship traveled from Rivendell to Eregion. When they got there, they commented on the mysterious elves that once lived there. Legolas said, “The Elves of this land were of a race strange to us of the silvan folk.”
That struck me as an odd thing to say, since I assume they had just spent a couple of months in the company of those elves. Heck, the elves who used to live in Eregion could have told Gandalf the password to enter Moria, since it wasn’t a secret while that realm lasted. (When Gandalf left Rivendell, it wasn’t his intention to pass through Moria, but it was clearly one of his contingency plans.) Maybe we’re meant to understand that the elves of Eregion fled to Rivendell, but then, much later, they all passed on to the Grey Havens and over the sea. But in that case, who lives in Rivendell? And since there were still Noldor in Eriador at the end of the Third Age, it seems odd to suppose that not one of those Noldor would have been from Eregion.
One could well ask, “What was the population of Rivendell, as the larger the population, the harder it would be to keep it hidden?” Imladris was by all descriptions a refuge, not a Lórien-sized realm. Over the ages refugees might come and eventually move on to leave room for new arrivals. In the case of mortals like Aragorn or Bilbo, nature would take its course. For Elves, they’d either have to fall in combat or, to paraphrase Samwise, go sailing, sailing, sailing into the West.
So, maybe none of Hollin’s Noldor remained in Imladris by the end of the Third Age. Though Elrond lead them to Rivendell, they were not his people, he was not their natural leader. I can imagine them eventually departing as a group. “You’ve gathered plenty of others here, you don’t need us any more.” Or maybe Gandalf just screwed up and didn’t think to ask for a password when he had the chance. (Ok, this was the same Gandalf who engineered the liberation of the Lonely Mountain. He should know to expect hidden doors and such, right?)
But there were times when Rivendell did field armies. Clearly, that would have been a necessity in the days of Angmar. Perhaps Rivendell was the equivalent of Hermione Grainger’s bottomless purse, tiny and easily hidden on the outside, infinitely large within?
As to Legolas’ comment? I’ve always taken it to mean, “We rustic Silvan folk could never grok them fully.” They were strange in motivation and interest, rather than acquaintance. Anyway, that was something of a pose on Legolas’ part, as his father and grandfather were sophisticated Sindar of Beleriand, not Wood-elves.
Well considering that passing through Moria wasn’t initially in plans (Gandalf wanted to go over the mountains remember), he might actually did not think about that possibility, besides for all we know any remaining Noldor of Eregion living in Imladris would be sitting in some separate house or dwelling in the valley, not necessarily living in Elrond’s ‘mansion’, maybe he simply didn’t meet and talk with any of those original Eregion inhabitants, or those who did live simply didn’t knew password, not every Elf ever living in Eregion was necessarily supposed to be inside Moria, there would be thousands of Elves that lived and worked in their cities meeting Dwarves only when they came to them for example. The Door of Moria was also at all times open in this period of friendship with guards at the door, so maybe not all Elves even needed password for traffic. The door would be closed I guess mostly for the night? Or in specially dangerous times, though I guess before Sauron came with with his unfriendly take-over plans there were not many such times. The Western door were made for the purpose of traffic with Elves, when Eregion was founded because elven craftsmen heard of discovery of mithril. Also as Gandalf says himself he clearly knew that there was a password but that since it was in more friendly time he would guess it basing from the knowledge he had or hoped to discover it from the door itself as was proven in the end. He certainly had enough knowledge about ithildin and how to ‘activate it’ speaking some forgotten words (so maybe he actually did speak with some original Eregion Elves but their knowledge in turn could be incomplete).
Elven-wise sounds like non-elf to me .