Q: Why Did Thranduil Refuse to Help the Dwarves of Erebor?
ANSWER: In “The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey” the prologue to the movie shows Thranduil visiting Thror in Erebor and perhaps even paying homage to him (acting in a subservient capacity, or as an ally of lesser status). When Smaug attacks the mountain kingdom and destroys the city of Dale, Thranduil leads an army out of Mirkwood but upon seeing the devastation wrought by the dragon he hesitates. As the surviving Dwarves flee their homeland across an empty wetland they look to Thranduil and his army for help but the Elves turn away.
After the movie was released in December 2012 fans have speculated on why Thranduil did nothing to help the Dwarves. In my previous article, Why Didn’t the Elves Help the Dwarves in The Hobbit? I could only speculate on what Thranduil’s motivations might have been. Now that we have seen “The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug” we know that Thranduil tells Thorin that he had warned Thror against allowing his greed to lead him into ruin, and that he was reluctant to lead his people against the dragon after its victories over Erebor and Dale. In my previous article I wrote “I would argue that Thranuil made a practical decision not to risk his people in battle with a powerful dragon that had just destroyed two kingdoms.”
I think, however, that Peter Jackson has woven two subtexts into the movies’ plot. The first subtext is to heighten and explain the almost rabid hatred and mistrust between Elves and Dwarves that his characters displayed in the movie “The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring”. That hatred and mistrust was not part of the books. Peter Jackson appears to be exaggerating the “strife” between Elves and Dwarves in his movies, probably because he feels it lends to dramatic conflict (although in my opinion it’s so over-the-top as to be less powerful and interesting than the book’s subtle hint that once-friendly races have been carefully orchestrated into mistrusting each other by their common foe).
The other subtext appears to be related to the Dwarven Rings of Power. Although Peter’s “Lord of the Rings” movies did not provide much exposition about the powers and uses of the various rings, he did explicitly say (in the prologue) that seven rings were made for the Dwarves. In the books all of the Rings were made for the Elves and it was Sauron who seized the Seven from the Elves of Eregion and later gave them to the Dwarves. The Rings failed to enslave the Dwarves as their nine counterparts enslaved Men. In Appendix A to The Lord of the Rings Tolkien wrote:
None the less it may well be, as the Dwarves now believe, that Sauron by his arts had discovered who had this Ring, the last to remain free, and that the singular misfortunes of the heirs of Durin were largely due to his malice. For the Dwarves had proved untameable by this means. The only power over them that the Rings wielded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things, so that if they lacked them all other good things seemed profitless, and they were filled with wrath and desire for vengeance on all who deprived them. But they were made from their beginning of a kind to resist most steadfastly any domination. Though they could be slain or broken, they could not be reduced to shadows enslaved to another will; and for the same reason their lives were not affected by any Ring, to live either longer or shorter because of it. All the more did Sauron hate the possessors and desire to dispossess them.
The treacherous history of the Rings of Power is not included in The Hobbit and in the book Smaug has no apparent awareness of the One Ring that Bilbo is carrying. It seems to me that Peter is retrofitting his Ring-lore into his adaptation of The Hobbit to provide for more consistency between the movies, and perhaps also to provide some of that exposition he could not include in the “Lord of the Rings” movies.
Hence, maybe it will be revealed in the third “Hobbit” film (or an extended edition) that Thror’s ring played a role in the division of the Elves and Dwarves. There has so far been no real explanation for why Elves and Dwarves don’t get along in Peter Jackson’s Middle-earth, except for Thranduil’s snub at the destruction of Erebor. That seems to serve as the root cause for Elf-Dwarf hatred, but Thranduil’s conversation with Thorin leads me to believe that Peter Jackson has something else in mind.
See also:
- How is Thranduil Different from the Book?
- Why Does Thranduil Wear Rings in the Movies?
- Was the Elvenking of The Hobbit Supposed to be Thingol Greycloak?
- How Faithful is Peter Jackson’s Hobbit to Tolkien’s Book?
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Have you read our other Tolkien and Middle-earth Questions and Answers articles?
The extended edition of ‘An Unexpected Journey’ reveals a bit more of the way, Peter Jackson wants to play this: When Thranduil visits Thror for paying reference to the Arkenstone, he is shown a chest full of white gems, which look like little Arkenstones or diamond splinters with the shine of the Arkenstone. Bilbo (voice from the off) explains to Frodo, that the ownership is disputed somehow. Thranduil feels robbed, while the dwarves feel, that Thranduil tried to avoid paying them for works, they’ve done for the elves. When Thorin is brought before Thranduil in the elvenking’s hall, Thranduil seems to hint at those disputed stones, when he offers Thorin his deal, which gets rejected. There are hints, that the stones are treasured by the elves for more than their monetary value . I wonder, if Peter Jackson might also come up with a deeper explanation for the special value of the Arkenstone, which in the book is just big and extraordinarily beautiful. It’s already hinted at, that the Arkenstone might strengthen Thorin’s claim to rulership, but there might be more behind (Jackson’s) stone.
When the dwarves reside for a while at Rivendell, the extended edition features some comic scenes, which emphasize the different mentalities of elves and dwarves. You see some dwarves skinny dipping in an elven fountain, and they even manage to empty Elrond’s pantry and wine cellars, just as they did with Bilbo’s. Thorin and Bilbo overhear a discussion between Elrond and Gandalf, where Elrond hints at a strain of mental illness in Thorin’s family, whith Thror and Thrain having succumbed to madness.
The extended edition is quite nice, and I wonder, why some scenes didn’t make it into the theatrical release. There would have been greater clarity.
I think, there’s a dramaturcical reason, why some dwarves got left behind in Lake Town. This way, they can interact with elves and men during the defence of Lake Town, when the dragon charges. Also Kili and Tauriel can spend some quality time together, and bridge the gulf between dwarves and elves a bit, even, if that means probably fighting heroically most of the time . I have a hunch though, that there won’t be an interracial marriage at the end of part 3. It might more like Cora (or Alice in the movie) and Uncas going together into the eternal hunting grounds at the end of ‘The Last Of The Mohicans’. However this will end, it will probably explain on a personal level, why Legolas isn’t exactly a friend of dwarves in “The Fellowship Of The Ring”.
Sab B
great explanation. I recently watched an interview with the actress playing Tauriel explaining that there was a scene in the movie – which has been cut, might be in an extendend edition – which will initially show Tauriels socialisation leading to a hatred/despise of dwarves.
I’m not really happy about the little interracial love story, it doesn’t really seem necessary. And yes I too believe that poor Tauriel will not survive the 3rd movie – which would explain more about Legolas’ motives, yes.
I think the story about Elves not paying for Dwarf work is even somewhere in the books – have to look it up. Though the stones Thranduil is shown in the extended edition and why he is refused them is not really explained.
What I’m wondering is this: Two mighty rings are shown in the movie on Thranduil’s hand. Is one of them a ring of power?
You are right, there is something mentioned in ‘The Hobbit’ about custom made jewelry for the elvenking and withheld payment.
Interesting observation about the rings on Thranduils hands. Thor’s ring IS mentioned in the extended edition during the council at Rivendell. Gandalf talks about the ring being out there.I can’t see though, how it could have ended up with Thranduil. We will have to wait one more year. 🙂
I don’t mind the Kili/Tauriel thing as much as I thought I would, but it would have worked much better, if they had fleshed it out a bit more, instead of showing the umpteen’s ork attac. These orks aren’t particularly frightening anyway, since they rarely even hurt anyone (Kili being the notable exception) and are more like a recurring pest
Agree with you again about the love story. And I have a problem with the fact that it is never made an issue that here we have an immortal falling in love with a mortal being. I mean, that should be a major problem! Well yeah maybe they just don’t have time to consider it being busy fending off the orc-pest 🙂
Morwenn, Tolkien has at least developed two realtionships between a mortal man and an immortal woman: Luthien and Beren and Arwen and Aragorn. But you probably know this, and of course it causes problems. But Kili and Tauriel probably won’t have time, to even get that far. So far, there are only hints of mutual attraction, nothing more. And my guess (and your guess) is, that they will be dead, before immortality becomes an issue. Which sounds kind of paradox, if an immortal is involved, but elves aren’t even immortal, not in the sense of gods or angels. They don’t die of old age, but they can fall in battle or they fade very slowly away. Then, their spirits roam the earth, or they can gather in the halls of Manwe. In the book, Kili, his brother Fili and Thorin die. And Peter Jackson’s very own invention Tauriel won’t survive the end of part 3 either So, immortality isn’t one of the problems, this elf/dwarf romance will face. But we can have a good cry 😉
Before the sack of Eregion, Celebrimbor gave Vilya and Narya to Gil-galad and Nenya to Galadriel. Gil-galad later gave Narya to Círdan, and gave Vilya to Elrond shortly before he died.
Vilya Elrond wore, Nenya by Galadriel, and Narya was given to Gandalf by Círdan.
Hope that helps!
I had thought that the bad feelings between the Dwarves and Elves also had much to do with the Nauglamir. Since Thranduil had resided in Doriath with Thingol and Melian he must have been aware, or even perhaps witness to the sack of Doriath. I should think this dispute between Elves and Dwarves which lead to the downfall of Doriath and the slaying of the Dwarf band by Beren and company would have had much to do with the animosity of the two races.
Morwenn: If it is it wasn’t one of the “great rings”. The three Elven “great rings” were held by Galadriel, Elrond, and Gandalf.
Gerry: That would tend to color ones opinion of a people…
At the time of ‘The Hobbit’, Gandalf doesn’t have a Great Ring.He’s not that distinguished, yet. If I remember correctly, he doesn’t get his ring until after his resurrection. I have to look that time line up, though.
Correction: Gandalf has the ring already at the time of “The Hobbit”. He got it early in the Third Age from Cirdan, who sensed Gandalf’s potential and gave it to him, when Gandalf and the other istari arrived at Middle Earth. Maybe, that’s one reason, why Saruman wanted a ring, too.
ok, thanks. I can never remember who holds which / how many rings 🙂
I had to look it up myself, and even then promptly forgot WHICH ring each has…
Morwenn’s remark about the big ring on Thranduil’s hand really made me curious, and I did a bit of video sleuthing. In the extended edition of the first movie, we get to see, albeit shortly, a ring on Thranduil’s hand, when he tries to touch the chest with white gems during his visit at Thor’s court. This is clearly a different ring than the one, we get to see in a very demonstrative way, almost before we see the elvenking himself, in the second movie, after the dwarves have been brought to Thranduil’s hall. But, when Thranduil has his discussion with Thorin,he hides his hands most of the time behind his back, and neither Thorin nor we can see his hands. This is really strange and made me curiouser. Could Peter Jackson’s version of Thranduil have a ring of power? It could only be one of the seven rings, Sauron gave to the dwarves, since the others are accounted for. While the rings given to the dwarves didn’t make them Sauron’s servants, they made the dwarves greedy for material riches, jewells and treasures. Thranduil clearly exhibits those ‘dwarvish symptoms, too, which is not typical for an elf. It’s true to Tolkien’s Hobbit, though btw. If Thranduil got hold somehow of one of the seven rings, it would explain this part of his personality. Bur which ring could he have gotten and how? It cannot be Thror’s ring, since that one was given to Thrain, who lost it to Sauron during his imprisonment at Dol Guldur.Thror’s ring looks different anyway. Sauron recaptured two other dwarven rings (he later offers Dain, Thorin’s successor, three rings in exchange for information about the whereabouts of The One Ring). So, Thranduil could only have gotten hold of one of the rings, which were supposedly stolen or consumed by dragons. And, lo and behold, there is a very spectacular scene with Thranduil getting VERY emotional, when Thorin mentions dragons. The elvenking undergoes a pretty spectacular facial transformation, and a burn scar is reveiled. Thranduil says, he knows everything about a dragon’s fire. So, apparently, he HAD a close encounter with a dragon. Did he get his ring then? Is that one of the reasons, why he doesn’t want to fight Smaug and help the dwarves? Is that a back story, Peter Jackson invented for him? It’s pure speculation, but the way, Thranduil’s ring is shown, what he does with his hands, and the presence of a burn scar, caused by a dragon makes me think, the script writers were up to something.
Lee Pace’s Thranduil was one of the second movie’s highlights for me. I disliked many things, but not the potrayal of the elvemking. Peter Jackson has given us glimpses of emotional debth and scars, we haven’t seen in his silver screen elves before.
Dwarves are greedy,selfish and quick to temper. You try dealing with Evil in all its forms for 3000 years and you would grow tired of greedy Dwarves as well. Anyone who does not understand why Thrandul put the Dwarves in prison did not read the book. As for the movie critics: You will see what an ass Thorin is in the next movie. You saw a glimpse of it a few times when he treats Bilbo like garbage, particularly when he is dealing with Bilbo in Desolation of Smaug. He is more concerned for the Arkenstone (which drove his father mad and obviously also has power over him but not Bilbo, Thraduil or Bard btw) than Bilbo. Dwarves are immersed in a culture of greed. Are there some that are less greedy like Gimli yes, but they are a pain in Elven ass. The Hobbits are driven by simple pleasures and just want to get on with it so they can get back to putting their feet up and smoking a pipe with a pint. The Elves are driven by good. I agree I want to see more in the next movie the Elven perspective. These ideas of cultural underpinnings are being missed by those who did not read the books. GOOD vs EVIL and all its shades.
Thranduil was around in the First Age, so he probably remembers the original dragons. I doubt that he had any contact with Smaug.
If his ring has any powers, it could be a “practice ring”, not one of the Great Rings. I would imagine that the smiths experimented quite a bit before perfecting the art, and while powerful, the resulting rings would probably have been weak prototypes compared to the final results. In my opinion, it’s just a piece of jewelry, and he comes by his greed naturally, at least partly as a result of isolation and longing for past glories. He really didn’t seem to be all there!
I don’t think, Jackson is hinting, that Thranduil ever came into contact with Smaug. But the film’s Thranduil had a close encounter with SOME dragon, as the burn scar and his own words seem to imply. Also, my speculations above came purely from watching the two movies. And the close up of this enormous ring, combined with this peculiar hiding of his hands immediately after the close up, while speaking to Thorin most of the time, gave me my ideas. Nothing, Tolkien has ever written, points in that direction. But Jackson clearly invented a back story for Thranduil, and I’m very curious to find out, what he had in mind. So, not everything in the second movie was bad, if it keeps us guessing. And I agree with you, Thranduil comes across a slightly unbalanced, espeially, if you compare him to his straight shooting son Legolas (pun intended).
Some precedent for Thranduil’s dwarfophobia and isolationism can be found in various textual sources including the Hobbit. His father Oropher was killed in the battle of Dagorlad, as I recall, after a hasty charge. Thranduil led home the one-third of the Greenwood elves’ force that survived, but seeing the devastation and loss of life that occurred in that conflict might convince anyone to never want to face open warfare again. Hence in fictional history context, Tranduil is really stretching and reaching beyond himself when he commits his forces to the Battle of Five Armies, although his original motivation was different.
The old grudge related to Thingol and the Dwarves of Nogrod and the sack of Doriath could very well be the driver for Thranduil’s hostility. There are a few odd notes in all this history, though. In LOTR, Gimli, in the middle of waxing ecstatic about the Glittering Caves of Aglarond, mentions to Legolas that he is aware that Leggy’s father’s halls were “helped in their making” long ago by the Dwarves. I know the silvan realm in Mirkwood is not Doriath, but this seems like an odd parallel. Also there was a theory ventured above about Thranduil holding a ring of power – perhaps an early essay in the craft – which seems more feasible when one considers that Thranduil’s halls have “magic Doors.” Magic fueled by a power-ring, or Elf-Magic like Galadriel’s Mirror? Which begs the question, were Galadriel’s powers of Mind and Hand fueled by Nenya, or something else? What is the nature of High-Elven magic outside of the rings which Celebrimbor crafted?
Suffice it to say that Thranduil has some sort of power as a Sindarin Elf of Royal line, but it’s never explained to what extent he has this power. Back to the grudge though, my theory is similar to the one stated above; the Dwarves do have a great love for the works of their hands – so it’s also conceivable that they may have been contracted to create a great work for the Elvenking (at least in PJ’s back story) but “held out” so to speak when it was actually completed….
Thranduil is one of the first Elves (perhaps the first?) Tolkien wrote about. As his fantasy world grew bigger and deeper, he felt the need to explain a bit better the Elvenking from Mirkwood, so he did add some explanations in his writings (his son published them in Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales) but it never felt like a complete history of Thranduil’s life and heritage. I even read somewhere that Tolkien intended to rewrite The Hobbit with much more details to match LOTR and to explain better Gandalf’s quest (going to Dol Guldur and back) and kingdom of Thranduil, but for better or worse, he never did that and he left us speculating about Thranduil a lot.